Thought ward 9 went to Grand, see on the map it stops at Vandy.
The people in my part of the City are generally supportive and understand the importance of the tax revenue to our City. I understand general sentiment as it relates to data center development but I certainly don't pretend to know the results of a hypothetical vote. The last national election being a great example. I understand the need for the City to be more dense, walkable, and transit oriented. The realty of the Armory site is that the only realistic chance for infill development similar to what Green Street purposed is for it to be rolled into a larger development like the one purposed. There are literally hundreds of better sites in the central corridor alone that will be developed before the Armory parking lot is filled in with high rises as green street purposed. For example, the NW corner of Forest Park and Vandaventer fell through as well as 3800 Laclede. Much better spots for infill.
You don't need to lie. No one believes you, there is no broad support for this.STLAPTS wrote:The people in my part of the City are generally supportive and understand the importance of the tax revenue to our City. I understand general sentiment as it relates to data center development but I certainly don't pretend to know the results of a hypothetical vote. The last national election being a great example. I understand the need for the City to be more dense, walkable, and transit oriented. The realty of the Armory site is that the only realistic chance for infill development similar to what Green Street purposed is for it to be rolled into a larger development like the one purposed. There are literally hundreds of better sites in the central corridor alone that will be developed before the Armory parking lot is filled in with high rises as green street purposed. For example, the NW corner of Forest Park and Vandaventer fell through as well as 3800 Laclede. Much better spots for infill.
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You don’t need to get so emotional and call people liars. Feel free to swing down to The Hill and Southwest Gardens and talk with the people about how they feel instead of assuming that everyone feels a certain way.StlAlex wrote: ↑7:01 PM - Mar 30You don't need to lie. No one believes you, there is no broad support for this.STLAPTS wrote:The people in my part of the City are generally supportive and understand the importance of the tax revenue to our City. I understand general sentiment as it relates to data center development but I certainly don't pretend to know the results of a hypothetical vote. The last national election being a great example. I understand the need for the City to be more dense, walkable, and transit oriented. The realty of the Armory site is that the only realistic chance for infill development similar to what Green Street purposed is for it to be rolled into a larger development like the one purposed. There are literally hundreds of better sites in the central corridor alone that will be developed before the Armory parking lot is filled in with high rises as green street purposed. For example, the NW corner of Forest Park and Vandaventer fell through as well as 3800 Laclede. Much better spots for infill.
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Also, no need to twist my words, I didnt suggest broad support. in fact, I said that I generally understand the sentiment around data center development. I merely suggested that not everyone is opposed and short of an actual vote you nor I know how it will turn out.
I'm a fan of the tax revenues.
I'm not a fan of a developer dangling 'phase II' without there being a clause that it's a requirement to put shovels in the dirt just as soon as they would for the data center.
Without that, just feels corrupt and like they're 'doing us a favor' building this, and then totally ignore the real betterment of the city.
I'm not a fan of a developer dangling 'phase II' without there being a clause that it's a requirement to put shovels in the dirt just as soon as they would for the data center.
Without that, just feels corrupt and like they're 'doing us a favor' building this, and then totally ignore the real betterment of the city.
Yeah I have complicated thoughts on the data center itself, but the presentation with more development on the Iron Hill site, etc. feels really disingenuous and doesn't bode well for the project imo
Listen up homies. Let's not mince words. These developers and the AI/Data center industry in general are all liars, have zero concern for the City (ours or any others) or anyone in it, and will absolutely deploy every resource at their disposal to avoid ever paying a single red cent in taxes or following through on any of their other promises. Much of the industry is funded by a circle-jerk of middle eastern sovereign wealth funds built on oil assets presently being blown to sh*t and/or blocked from the market, along with many of the critical supplies necessary to build those data centers and the hardware that goes in them. Which makes me certain that our wise elders will double down on them all over the metro area, citizenry be damned.bwcrow1s wrote: ↑7:52 PM - Mar 30I'm a fan of the tax revenues.
I'm not a fan of a developer dangling 'phase II' without there being a clause that it's a requirement to put shovels in the dirt just as soon as they would for the data center.
Without that, just feels corrupt and like they're 'doing us a favor' building this, and then totally ignore the real betterment of the city.
TLDR: The City has a long history of "monorail" thinking--Data centers are just the hottest, newest iteration of this periodic delusion befuddling our civic leaders.
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The dangers of GIGO / RIRO have only been magnified with the advent of AI.
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=73154
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=73154
Don't discount the American circle jerk happening too. Companies like Nvidia "investing" in OpenAI, which is just a way of artificially boosting their own sales when OpenAI spends that money on a data center. And the entire economy is currently reliant on the collective delusion that this is okay and totally legitimate.SB in BH wrote:Listen up homies. Let's not mince words. These developers and the AI/Data center industry in general are all liars, have zero concern for the City (ours or any others) or anyone in it, and will absolutely deploy every resource at their disposal to avoid ever paying a single red cent in taxes or following through on any of their other promises. Much of the industry is funded by a circle-jerk of middle eastern sovereign wealth funds built on oil assets presently being blown to sh*t and/or blocked from the market, along with many of the critical supplies necessary to build those data centers and the hardware that goes in them. Which makes me certain that our wise elders will double down on them all over the metro area, citizenry be damned.bwcrow1s wrote: ↑7:52 PM - Mar 30I'm a fan of the tax revenues.
I'm not a fan of a developer dangling 'phase II' without there being a clause that it's a requirement to put shovels in the dirt just as soon as they would for the data center.
Without that, just feels corrupt and like they're 'doing us a favor' building this, and then totally ignore the real betterment of the city.
TLDR: The City has a long history of "monorail" thinking--Data centers are just the hottest, newest iteration of this periodic delusion befuddling our civic leaders.
And the entire scam has the total support and cover of the government. Every time the Pentagon says "AI helped with this operation" it's literally just an advertisement to boost the reputation of the AI that they're "using", even if it turns out it was just used to format documents. Reminds me of suburbia.
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StlToday - Mayor moves to delay vote on controversial $3B St. Louis data center
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... 91b75.htmlST. LOUIS — The mayor’s office has moved to delay a vote on a permit for a controversial $3 billion Midtown data center.
The Board of Public Service has been scheduled to vote Tuesday afternoon on the permit and related conditions at its weekly meeting. The agenda indicated city staff had recommended approval.
But Monday afternoon, Rasmus Jorgensen, press secretary to Mayor Cara Spencer, said the mayor's office asked the board to postpone the vote to allow more time to review the proposed conditions, which were not made public.
“We asked the Board of Public Service to move this item to a later date,” Jorgensen said in a statement, “as we seek to ensure that the potential facility is built on terms that are enforceable and beneficial to the City and our community.”
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Having a Mayor interfering w/City’s zoning process is bad precedent. The Mayors own Director of Public Safety reviewed the conditions that zoning staff sent, mayors office got a copy last week. Never seen this in my time in zoning in 2011-2013 or ever since I’ve followed this
Interesting. Does this plan have a website or updated site plan, or are we working from the more diagrammatic information still?
You see unwarranted interference, I see a politician responding to voters who don't want to eat the sh*t sandwich on offer.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑2:31 PM - Mar 31Having a Mayor interfering w/City’s zoning process is bad precedent. The Mayors own Director of Public Safety reviewed the conditions that zoning staff sent, mayors office got a copy last week. Never seen this in my time in zoning in 2011-2013 or ever since I’ve followed this
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She probably realized that there is a huge public backlash to this broadly unpopular project being approved and she is the final backstop.
Or guarantee that a second phase happens? I would demand that before ever giving an iota of approval for this.dylank wrote: ↑2:34 PM - Mar 31Interesting. Does this plan have a website or updated site plan, or are we working from the more diagrammatic information still?
If so, I'll let good be the enemy of perfect for the benefit of the entire midtown area. The area needs dramatic infill south of the highway. Not sure what residents would want to live here though on the doorstep of a data center in their proposal which makes it all the more dubious.
No incentives, build it all, in full, or nothing at all. If we're going to take on potential environmental impact or otherwise there should be little to negotiate. Steve Smith can wander over the highway at some point and reinvent this area.
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There is no legal or legitimate means for the Mayor to be involved in this. Both sides made their case and professional staff made a recommendation. We’ll be lucky if the developer doesn’t sue.SB in BH wrote: ↑3:07 PM - Mar 31You see unwarranted interference, I see a politician responding to voters who don't want to eat the sh*t sandwich on offer.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑2:31 PM - Mar 31Having a Mayor interfering w/City’s zoning process is bad precedent. The Mayors own Director of Public Safety reviewed the conditions that zoning staff sent, mayors office got a copy last week. Never seen this in my time in zoning in 2011-2013 or ever since I’ve followed this
Take the words out of my mouth.SB in BH wrote:You see unwarranted interference, I see a politician responding to voters who don't want to eat the sh*t sandwich on offer.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑2:31 PM - Mar 31Having a Mayor interfering w/City’s zoning process is bad precedent. The Mayors own Director of Public Safety reviewed the conditions that zoning staff sent, mayors office got a copy last week. Never seen this in my time in zoning in 2011-2013 or ever since I’ve followed this
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I think like most things that are being pushed across the country, and more specifically for projects that aren't just local, I just want our leaders to make sure they are mitigating our risk as much as possible and verifying that we are getting as good of deal or better than our peers... As a fellow fan of the tax revenue like bwcrow said... this softly reminds me of the sports stadiums, and in that vein... I don't want the Kansas City Chiefs "Kansas" deal, but I would like the STLCitySC deal. Tough to know at this point, but I'm hoping our leaders used as much of their leverage as possible.
StlToday - Rules for Armory data center in St. Louis call for water control, opaque fencing
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... 0adc3.htmlST. LOUIS — A dozen proposed conditions that would allow a $3 billion data center near the Armory entertainment venue in Midtown include guidelines for water use and the requirement that the project not be deemed a “nuisance.”
The Board for Public Service was slated to approve the project Monday with a dozen conditions for the developers — local investor Rod Thomas and Las Vegas-based real estate firm Contour — before Mayor Cara Spencer postponed the vote on the permit.
But the list wasn't shared at a press conference Monday, and Spencer didn't state what changes she wanted nor whether the project should be approved.
Data Center approved. Here are the terms. These are strong compared to other agreements I've seen. Specifically, enforceable financial penalties for failure to hit employment, sustainability, and revenue expectations. In addition to new revenue generated for SLPS and City, $15M for Brickline which is enough to complete the Midtown bridge and Grand MetroLink connection to the Foundry. The developer will also be required to pay Green Streets property taxes, like millions at this point also.
___________________________
The following are the terms the City negotiated on the data center that will be adjacent to the Armory:
Use a closed-loop system and air-cooled chillers to minimize water consumption.
Pay any new large load or data center-specific water rates determined by a cost-of-service study, as well as fund a hydraulic model study and rectify any detrimental impact the development may cause on existing customers. Prior to the study completion, an agreement may establish a short-term rate for this use.
Recycle all electronic waste with the highest environmental certification (R2), which requires independent, third-party audits of facility operations, worker safety and downstream vendor tracking.
Achieve and maintain compliance with all wastewater discharge standards set by the Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer District, once the facility is operating.
Ensure that at least 50% of the data center’s energy load comes from renewable sources within five years of commencing operations. Additional target may be set in a community benefits agreement.
Maintain a Power Usage Effectiveness (PUE) of 1.25 or better, or 1.35 or better if more than 50% of the existing building on the parcel is repurposed.
Annually report waste heat rejected to the outdoor environment, the quantity of waste heat recovered or reused, and the peak heat rejection rate during summer design conditions or the hottest observed days.
Never use on-site generators as a general operating power source.
Place noise-emitting equipment, including backup generators, away from primary frontages and enclosed within acoustically treated structures.
Only test backup generators between 10 a.m. to 12 p.m. and 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. Monday through Friday, and never test on bad air quality days.
Incorporate battery storage for backup power to minimize reliance on diesel generators.
Operate the building with a cool roof, green roof, and/or rooftop photovoltaic solar panels to reduce urban heat impacts.
Provide and maintain landscaping and/or screening to screen equipment from any proposed or existing greenways along the premises.
Should any conditions not be met, the City is able to revoke the occupancy permit if issues are not corrected.
In addition to the above conditions, the City has also negotiated key terms for a community benefits agreement with the developer to secure quantifiable economic, environmental and infrastructure benefits, and protect our community against any risks and uncertainties associated with the project.
Term sheet details are also released with this press release and include the following provisions, binding the developer to:
Contribute $30 per square foot of approved data center development, an estimated $15 million to a City fund for the use on:
Multi-modal enhancements (e.g., Brickline Greenway);
St. Louis Digital Access Inclusion Plan activities; and
Economic and environmental justice activities, including for local distributed energy and weatherization.
Install and maintain sidewalks adjacent to Market Street and a pedestrian pathway to the Grand Metrolink station.
Not seek local tax abatement incentives for the data center or Armory buildings.
Confirm tax revenue estimates and pay $15,000 in liquidated damages for every $100,000 below the projected annual tax revenues if not met by 2029.
Meet escalating, median-wage "Job" minimums for 20 years (starting at 25 in year 1, 50 in year 2, and 100 thereafter) and pay $2,000 in liquidated damages for each job short of the required total.
Comply with the City's First-Source hiring ordinance to prioritize City residents for entry-level jobs. This also applies to large tenants.
Ensure the 500 Prospect property conforms to mutually agreeable plans for pedestrian, stormwater management, and heat island mitigation enhancements if used for parking.
Comply with all federal, state and local nondiscrimination laws, as well as specific City ordinances pertaining to minority-owned and women-owned business (M/WBE) participation, workforce development, and prevailing wage compliance. This also applies to contractors, and covenants will run with the land to prohibit discrimination in the sale, lease, or use of the property.
Establishes a performance schedule, with the data center completely operational by the end of quarter four of 2028. Permits will not be issued until all Green Street properties are current on taxes.
File a decommissioning plan to safely remove and recycle electronic waste if the data center is vacant for over a year.
Not lease the data center to tenants primarily using the premises for crypto-mining or other undesirable business uses.
Public disclosure of tenants unless prevented by national security interests.
The City will be able to seek legal recourse, including financial compensation, if specific provisions of the community benefits agreement are not met. To the City’s knowledge, this is the only such agreement negotiated for a data center project not receiving tax incentives from a city or county.
___________________________
The following are the terms the City negotiated on the data center that will be adjacent to the Armory:
Use a closed-loop system and air-cooled chillers to minimize water consumption.
Pay any new large load or data center-specific water rates determined by a cost-of-service study, as well as fund a hydraulic model study and rectify any detrimental impact the development may cause on existing customers. Prior to the study completion, an agreement may establish a short-term rate for this use.
Recycle all electronic waste with the highest environmental certification (R2), which requires independent, third-party audits of facility operations, worker safety and downstream vendor tracking.
Achieve and maintain compliance with all wastewater discharge standards set by the Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer District, once the facility is operating.
Ensure that at least 50% of the data center’s energy load comes from renewable sources within five years of commencing operations. Additional target may be set in a community benefits agreement.
Maintain a Power Usage Effectiveness (PUE) of 1.25 or better, or 1.35 or better if more than 50% of the existing building on the parcel is repurposed.
Annually report waste heat rejected to the outdoor environment, the quantity of waste heat recovered or reused, and the peak heat rejection rate during summer design conditions or the hottest observed days.
Never use on-site generators as a general operating power source.
Place noise-emitting equipment, including backup generators, away from primary frontages and enclosed within acoustically treated structures.
Only test backup generators between 10 a.m. to 12 p.m. and 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. Monday through Friday, and never test on bad air quality days.
Incorporate battery storage for backup power to minimize reliance on diesel generators.
Operate the building with a cool roof, green roof, and/or rooftop photovoltaic solar panels to reduce urban heat impacts.
Provide and maintain landscaping and/or screening to screen equipment from any proposed or existing greenways along the premises.
Should any conditions not be met, the City is able to revoke the occupancy permit if issues are not corrected.
In addition to the above conditions, the City has also negotiated key terms for a community benefits agreement with the developer to secure quantifiable economic, environmental and infrastructure benefits, and protect our community against any risks and uncertainties associated with the project.
Term sheet details are also released with this press release and include the following provisions, binding the developer to:
Contribute $30 per square foot of approved data center development, an estimated $15 million to a City fund for the use on:
Multi-modal enhancements (e.g., Brickline Greenway);
St. Louis Digital Access Inclusion Plan activities; and
Economic and environmental justice activities, including for local distributed energy and weatherization.
Install and maintain sidewalks adjacent to Market Street and a pedestrian pathway to the Grand Metrolink station.
Not seek local tax abatement incentives for the data center or Armory buildings.
Confirm tax revenue estimates and pay $15,000 in liquidated damages for every $100,000 below the projected annual tax revenues if not met by 2029.
Meet escalating, median-wage "Job" minimums for 20 years (starting at 25 in year 1, 50 in year 2, and 100 thereafter) and pay $2,000 in liquidated damages for each job short of the required total.
Comply with the City's First-Source hiring ordinance to prioritize City residents for entry-level jobs. This also applies to large tenants.
Ensure the 500 Prospect property conforms to mutually agreeable plans for pedestrian, stormwater management, and heat island mitigation enhancements if used for parking.
Comply with all federal, state and local nondiscrimination laws, as well as specific City ordinances pertaining to minority-owned and women-owned business (M/WBE) participation, workforce development, and prevailing wage compliance. This also applies to contractors, and covenants will run with the land to prohibit discrimination in the sale, lease, or use of the property.
Establishes a performance schedule, with the data center completely operational by the end of quarter four of 2028. Permits will not be issued until all Green Street properties are current on taxes.
File a decommissioning plan to safely remove and recycle electronic waste if the data center is vacant for over a year.
Not lease the data center to tenants primarily using the premises for crypto-mining or other undesirable business uses.
Public disclosure of tenants unless prevented by national security interests.
The City will be able to seek legal recourse, including financial compensation, if specific provisions of the community benefits agreement are not met. To the City’s knowledge, this is the only such agreement negotiated for a data center project not receiving tax incentives from a city or county.
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This is the only field left where everyone can squeeze everyone and everyone still wins. Based on my calls and texts with the development team, they will
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Good to hear. Last question: with access to power lines and fresh water I contend the north riverfront would be a data center paradise….so.
Again, I apologize for my ignorance, do these stipulations apply to north riverfront or JUST the Armory?
Again, I apologize for my ignorance, do these stipulations apply to north riverfront or JUST the Armory?