I’m having a hard time following the arguments here. Is the main argument for moving it that homeless people and criminals mess with it? If so, that seems like a very weak argument.
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I think the main argument is that it's unappreciated, unloved, and unused by anyone except homeless people and criminals. Meanwhile, it is right next to an appreciated, loved, and used downtown attraction that could use the expansion space.
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The value of art is entirely subjective. If no one visits Twain what cultural value is it generating. The fact that almost no one uses it for its intended purpose is objectively factual. Its value is derived from interaction and the interactions are laughably small.
I am highly skeptical that Twain can be made into a valued cultural resource for the city but i would be open to a plan to that effect. Let see how someone would propose to solve the issues. Understand though Twain's "art is very wrapped up in both the art, the observer and the surroundings. Modifying the surrounds in some ways DOES undermine the art. Once you destroy a piece of it, does the rest retain value... i dunno, maybe, again subjective. Even then it opens the door to the question, "why not just get rid of it." especially when you consider the dollars that will be required to make it relevant to residents.
I am highly skeptical that Twain can be made into a valued cultural resource for the city but i would be open to a plan to that effect. Let see how someone would propose to solve the issues. Understand though Twain's "art is very wrapped up in both the art, the observer and the surroundings. Modifying the surrounds in some ways DOES undermine the art. Once you destroy a piece of it, does the rest retain value... i dunno, maybe, again subjective. Even then it opens the door to the question, "why not just get rid of it." especially when you consider the dollars that will be required to make it relevant to residents.
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Sounds like a lot of buildings downtown that preservationists grab their pitchforks to save when another institution could use the expansion space. But to each their own.RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑Jun 30, 2023I think the main argument is that it's unappreciated, unloved, and unused by anyone except homeless people and criminals. Meanwhile, it is right next to an appreciated, loved, and used downtown attraction that could use the expansion space.
I like Twain, and it could definitely use some love...but if STL wants to move it, nothing much I can say. I understand the hatred, even if it's not the sculpture's fault...more society...
On that note, I do find the secondary effects of Twain to be as interesting as Twain itself. Rust belt city covered in graffiti that's unloved by anyone except homeless people and criminals. Instead of dealing with the issues, they just want to move it to where they can't see it. I dunno...maybe you don't need to cover Twain in a mirror, seems like it reflects our image just fine.
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I don't think any reasonable individual could argue against the notion that another full block of City Garden would bring more vibrancy and energy to downtown St. Louis than an art piece that is at best ignored and rarely thought of in a poorly maintained park.
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Not arguing that…in fact if you scroll up, you’d see that I’d like to see City Garden expand and incorporate Twain.RockChalkSTL wrote:I don't think any reasonable individual could argue against the notion that another full block of City Garden would bring more vibrancy and energy to downtown St. Louis than an art piece that is at best ignored and rarely thought of in a poorly maintained park.
That would be my preferred option.
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It has shocked me since day one that City Garden didn't extend out to Twain. I basically assumed that it did, but . . . not so much. Sure, the thing needs better context. Better lighting, better landscaping. Being sensitive to the art is a complicated challenge, of course, but I can't believe we can't find a way to work with a great piece from a great artist. Sure, there are several other Sara's in town now, but that's the one that's been here and in its intended context the longest. It's a neat piece. We're lucky to have it, honestly. It helps keep us on the arts map. I don't think we need to move it. A bit of love will solve the problems right where it is. It will be cheaper and easier than moving it, which would be extremely expensive given the size and weight of the thing. It's just a better solution all around. Connect it properly to City Garden. Light it. Make the paths and sidewalks better. Put some better signage around it. We can do this.
^ Will simply have to agree to disagree. Your comments to me simply equate to putting lipstick because it is the cheap easiest thing to do IMO. Sometimes art fails and honestly think this sculpture failed to captivate people at the scale the artist or the sponsors were hoping for.
How so?
We're certainly not promoting to ourselves or outsiders.
20 MUST-SEE SCULPTURES
https://stlouisarts.org/sculpture/
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https://www.stlmag.com/culture/visual-a ... xperience/
Explore Art & Culture in St. Louis with Jenna Fischer
https://explorestlouis.com/discover/st- ... rt-lovers/
Serra himself expected the block on which Twain was installed to have landscaping and benches installed, and even though trees were planted he's lamented that portion of his original vision didn't come to be as he hoped.
Twain was intended to be site-specific. It incorporates not only the urban surroundings but also the pitch of the land on which it sits. If a relocation to be considered, to be true to the artist's vision it would need to be an urban location near the start of the westward expansion movement and that contrasts the intentional isolation inside against much busier and more dynamic surroundings, and would need to be graded to account for the difference in height of the sculpture from East to West. Not impossible, but a challenge.
I think the choice is either to remove it or to make the block more enticing to explore. I do get those who prefer the former, but personally I'd prefer to explore the later first.
As has been mentioned in crime threads, the most effective way to limit undesirable/illegal behavior is lots and lots of pedestrian traffic. Incorporating the Twain block into City Garden by adding attractive hard scaping (benches, paths leading people from the already popular bits of the garden into the interior of Twain, etc) as well as more substantial landscaping could invite people to the block and into Twain's interior void. That would make the plain interior even more of a contrast to it's surroundings, which is consistent with Serra's vision. Perhaps a minor adjustment could be to incorporate a plaque - maybe on a simple pedestal in the middle of the void - both to give folks a reason to ingress, and to help them understand what the artist intended for the interior portion of the space.
IIRC the Gateway Mall master plan included some of the above. Do we know of that was just a 'what could be' vision or if the plan included definite plans for Twain?
-RBB
Twain was intended to be site-specific. It incorporates not only the urban surroundings but also the pitch of the land on which it sits. If a relocation to be considered, to be true to the artist's vision it would need to be an urban location near the start of the westward expansion movement and that contrasts the intentional isolation inside against much busier and more dynamic surroundings, and would need to be graded to account for the difference in height of the sculpture from East to West. Not impossible, but a challenge.
I think the choice is either to remove it or to make the block more enticing to explore. I do get those who prefer the former, but personally I'd prefer to explore the later first.
As has been mentioned in crime threads, the most effective way to limit undesirable/illegal behavior is lots and lots of pedestrian traffic. Incorporating the Twain block into City Garden by adding attractive hard scaping (benches, paths leading people from the already popular bits of the garden into the interior of Twain, etc) as well as more substantial landscaping could invite people to the block and into Twain's interior void. That would make the plain interior even more of a contrast to it's surroundings, which is consistent with Serra's vision. Perhaps a minor adjustment could be to incorporate a plaque - maybe on a simple pedestal in the middle of the void - both to give folks a reason to ingress, and to help them understand what the artist intended for the interior portion of the space.
IIRC the Gateway Mall master plan included some of the above. Do we know of that was just a 'what could be' vision or if the plan included definite plans for Twain?
-RBB
As a kid, I didn't even know the thing was a sculpture. When I found out it was a purposeful art installation, it made more sense. Is there even a plaque by it?
The Gateway Mall Master Plan is here: https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... r-plan.cfm
And this is a screenshot showing the vision for the block between 10th & 11th streets. It does imply more than what's there today:
![]()
-RBB
And this is a screenshot showing the vision for the block between 10th & 11th streets. It does imply more than what's there today:
-RBB
Anyone able to post some pics of the new sculptures at City Garden? Thanks.
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framer wrote: ↑May 02, 2024Anyone able to post some pics of the new sculptures at City Garden? Thanks.
+2
Mechanical Planet by Jan Kalab
White Ghost by one of the most well known Japanese artists Yoshitomo Nara
The the Afro pick called All Power to All People by Hank Willis Thomas. It’s 800 lbs
White Ghost by one of the most well known Japanese artists Yoshitomo Nara
The the Afro pick called All Power to All People by Hank Willis Thomas. It’s 800 lbs
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3 additions and 2 coming back
I think this will be good
I forget -- was there an announcement or at least a hint of the next tenant?dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑8:43 PM - Jan 13I think this will be good
According to this article in STLmag: "In 2026, [Gateway] Foundation will move forward with a new concept to be managed internally." I believe there were rumors of it being turned into an art gallery, but I'm not entirely certain.
Public restrooms to replace the cracked, leaking porta-potties that visitors have to contend with would be a huge improvement.Ragtimer wrote: ↑3:51 AM - Jan 14stldotage:I forget -- was there an announcement or at least a hint of the next tenant?dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑8:43 PM - Jan 13I think this will be good
According to this article in STLmag: "In 2026, [Gateway] Foundation will move forward with a new concept to be managed internally." I believe there were rumors of it being turned into an art gallery, but I'm not entirely certain.
