I disagree. Post-covid, I don't think STL can be healthy with 2 downtowns and a strong suburban office market. There will always be something missing.STLAPTS wrote: ↑Nov 28, 2025I do agree that Downtown needs to be our focus but a healthy metropolitan area of almost 3M should support both Downtown and Clayton as well as a few other dense office areas.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 27, 2025It's because Clayton has been the biggest direct detriment to the city and downtown for decades. If you transfered Clayton to downtown, the city and region would be so much healthier words can't even describe it. But instead both struggle because seperated neither one has all the pillars of a true downtown.jshank83 wrote: ↑Nov 27, 2025
But it always turns into one for some reason. One of my bigger annoyances on here.
So it's funny to see the County's/suburbs' shining city on a hill struggle.
Obviously Clayton is not comparable to West County or DT Chesterfield or St. Charles. But it's still a leech that people believe false things about because of propaganda.
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I don't know where the Clayton is struggling mantra comes from, the are office market has the highest rates and some of the lowest vacancies. There are also been a slew of high-end housing being built.
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City of Clayton struggles to balance its budget and pay its bills.
City of Clayton, especially downtown, is a snooze fest that everyone vacates as quickly as possible the moment 4:00pm rolls around.
City of Clayton, especially downtown, is a snooze fest that everyone vacates as quickly as possible the moment 4:00pm rolls around.
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Clayton doesn’t have one of the lowest office vanancy rates. It’s 17%. It’s biggest tenant, Centene, on paper has thousands of employees in Clayton but any give day 300 or so go to the office
Better measure is money spent. For first 6 months of 2025 there was $164m spent in Clayton (entire 2.5 sq miles not just half sq mile downtown). In downtown STL $865m
Better measure is money spent. For first 6 months of 2025 there was $164m spent in Clayton (entire 2.5 sq miles not just half sq mile downtown). In downtown STL $865m
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The way your comparing money spend vs sq miles is pretty flawed too considering the majority of that 2.5sq miles in Clayton is single family residential.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025Clayton doesn’t have one of the lowest office vanancy rates. It’s 17%. It’s biggest tenant, Centene, on paper has thousands of employees in Clayton but any give day 300 or so go to the office
Better measure is money spent. For first 6 months of 2025 there was $164m spent in Clayton (entire 2.5 sq miles not just half sq mile downtown). In downtown STL $865m
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There is no other way, the state has data by zip code, city and county or district (like cids) for Clayton you’re either going to get 63105 or Clayton as a whole but 63105 is pretty much ClaytonDebaliviere91 wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025The way your comparing money spend vs sq miles is pretty flawed too considering the majority of that 2.5sq miles in Clayton is single family residential.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025Clayton doesn’t have one of the lowest office vanancy rates. It’s 17%. It’s biggest tenant, Centene, on paper has thousands of employees in Clayton but any give day 300 or so go to the office
Better measure is money spent. For first 6 months of 2025 there was $164m spent in Clayton (entire 2.5 sq miles not just half sq mile downtown). In downtown STL $865m
Additionally, spending only is misleading when comparing office vacancy rates. Downtown, as Dbln often cites, has myriad of drivers that aren't office workers, that account for most of its spending.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025The way your comparing money spend vs sq miles is pretty flawed too considering the majority of that 2.5sq miles in Clayton is single family residential.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025Clayton doesn’t have one of the lowest office vanancy rates. It’s 17%. It’s biggest tenant, Centene, on paper has thousands of employees in Clayton but any give day 300 or so go to the office
Better measure is money spent. For first 6 months of 2025 there was $164m spent in Clayton (entire 2.5 sq miles not just half sq mile downtown). In downtown STL $865m
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Right, so maybe there isn’t any point to comparing spending in DT Clayton vs DT St Louis.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025There is no other way, the state has data by zip code, city and county or district (like cids) for Clayton you’re either going to get 63105 or Clayton as a whole but 63105 is pretty much ClaytonDebaliviere91 wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025The way your comparing money spend vs sq miles is pretty flawed too considering the majority of that 2.5sq miles in Clayton is single family residential.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025Clayton doesn’t have one of the lowest office vanancy rates. It’s 17%. It’s biggest tenant, Centene, on paper has thousands of employees in Clayton but any give day 300 or so go to the office
Better measure is money spent. For first 6 months of 2025 there was $164m spent in Clayton (entire 2.5 sq miles not just half sq mile downtown). In downtown STL $865m
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If you want to shave off $30-40m from that $165m for Clayton, the $125m for downtown Clayton is probably in the ballparkDebaliviere91 wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025Right, so maybe there isn’t any point to comparing spending in DT Clayton vs DT St Louis.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025There is no other way, the state has data by zip code, city and county or district (like cids) for Clayton you’re either going to get 63105 or Clayton as a whole but 63105 is pretty much ClaytonDebaliviere91 wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025The way your comparing money spend vs sq miles is pretty flawed too considering the majority of that 2.5sq miles in Clayton is single family residential.
Office vacancy data is readily available.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025Right, so maybe there isn’t any point to comparing spending in DT Clayton vs DT St Louis.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025There is no other way, the state has data by zip code, city and county or district (like cids) for Clayton you’re either going to get 63105 or Clayton as a whole but 63105 is pretty much ClaytonDebaliviere91 wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025The way your comparing money spend vs sq miles is pretty flawed too considering the majority of that 2.5sq miles in Clayton is single family residential.
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Maybe, but that may be over estimating the spending done in Clayton outside of Downtown. Plus DT Clayton is quite a bit smaller sq mileage wise than DT St Louis.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025If you want to shave off $30-40m from that $165m for Clayton, the $125m for downtown Clayton is probably in the ballparkDebaliviere91 wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025Right, so maybe there isn’t any point to comparing spending in DT Clayton vs DT St Louis.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025
There is no other way, the state has data by zip code, city and county or district (like cids) for Clayton you’re either going to get 63105 or Clayton as a whole but 63105 is pretty much Clayton
That and the reality that DT Clayton isn’t really an entertainment district like DT St Louis.
So again I ask, what good does comparing spend in the total city of Clayton vs DT St Louis do?
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Debaliviere91, respectfully, wth are you talking about?
It’s perfectly reasonable to compare DT StL and Clayton from a tax receipts perspective.
It’s perfectly reasonable to compare DT StL and Clayton from a tax receipts perspective.
Clayton's office vacancy today is what downtown's was in 2019. Back in 2019, downtown was considered "struggling." Reality is that the entire office market is screwed and 15% vacancy is considered "good" but really it's not. So Clayton's retail and restaurant scene has struggled post-covid.southcitykid wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025I don't know where the Clayton is struggling mantra comes from, the are office market has the highest rates and some of the lowest vacancies. There are also been a slew of high-end housing being built.
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For what purpose though?JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025Debaliviere91, respectfully, wth are you talking about?
It’s perfectly reasonable to compare DT StL and Clayton from a tax receipts perspective.
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The purpose of determining which one generates more sales taxes. I thought that was obvious.
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While Clayton absolutely stole jobs from Downtown, it's already here. While Downtown is still the more important area of our region, Clayton doing well is still very important to STL City. It's urban, it's connected to transit, and it's close enough to the city that workers aren't deterred from living in the city.
A job in Clayton is still a positive for the region IMO. Better than Chesterfield or St. Charles County.
A job in Clayton is still a positive for the region IMO. Better than Chesterfield or St. Charles County.
People say this like it is a bad thing. Which again is why I say it is silly to compare Clayton and downtown, they are very different.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025City of Clayton, especially downtown, is a snooze fest that everyone vacates as quickly as possible the moment 4:00pm rolls around.
Agreed! I assume most of the jobs in Clayton were going to be in the suburbs anyways. There was the flirting of BPV and Centene but otherwise, it was Clayton or Creve Couer and Chesterfield. I am happy they landed in a transit-oriented area and I hope Downtown Clayton finds ways to bring more personality to it's core. A completely full Clayton is good for the region.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025While Clayton absolutely stole jobs from Downtown, it's already here. While Downtown is still the more important area of our region, Clayton doing well is still very important to STL City. It's urban, it's connected to transit, and it's close enough to the city that workers aren't deterred from living in the city.
A job in Clayton is still a positive for the region IMO. Better than Chesterfield or St. Charles County.
A good region would recognize that St. Louis has an enormous opportunity. It's just about the distance of Buckhead to Atlanta, a very powerful 8 mile corridor. Everyone knows Atlanta, no one knows Buckhead.
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It is a bad thing because people aren’t spending money in Clayton. Transactions are how municipalities raise revenue. So Clayton has to provide services for 100K+ people everyday but doesn’t have the revenue for it because they are so weak on taxable sales.jshank83 wrote: ↑Dec 01, 2025People say this like it is a bad thing. Which again is why I say it is silly to compare Clayton and downtown, they are very different.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025City of Clayton, especially downtown, is a snooze fest that everyone vacates as quickly as possible the moment 4:00pm rolls around.
Vacancy will contract again in Clayton for the fourth quarter. There are very few large blocks of desirable space available and those that have become available have fetched top dollar for the Metro.southcitykid wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025I don't know where the Clayton is struggling mantra comes from, the are office market has the highest rates and some of the lowest vacancies. There are also been a slew of high-end housing being built.
The city has a lot of room for improvement as far as retail and multi-family are concerned. However, with the redo of zoning to permit more bars and nightlife options along with a large number of new housing units being delivered, I think things will look much different in five years.
There is a lot of truth to this. A lot of older assets have become what is essentially functionally obsolete and are being either converted or demolished for redevelopment. Ie. Soft Surroundings HQ, Woodlands Plaza 1, etc.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025Clayton's office vacancy today is what downtown's was in 2019. Back in 2019, downtown was considered "struggling." Reality is that the entire office market is screwed and 15% vacancy is considered "good" but really it's not. So Clayton's retail and restaurant scene has struggled post-covid.southcitykid wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2025I don't know where the Clayton is struggling mantra comes from, the are office market has the highest rates and some of the lowest vacancies. There are also been a slew of high-end housing being built.
Clayton is also in the process of updating downtown zoning. Most recent projects had to navigate a dated code via Planned Unit Developments. The new zoning seems to make saying yes to development a lot easer.
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I would be interested in studying the idea of Clayton annexing some of its surrounding municipalities. U-City, Richmond Heights, and Brentwood seem like obvious places to start. Maybe include places like Maplewood, Ladue, or even Frontenac.
It would potentially make things easier to eventually merge these into STL if the great divorce is ever reversed
It would potentially make things easier to eventually merge these into STL if the great divorce is ever reversed
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Clayton and Richmond Heights did consider a merger around 2005-2007. Obviously didn’t go anywhere.