Wouldn't it be even cheaper if we used the Oak Hill ROW as a heavy rail transit system instead of light rail. For all practical purposes, it moves people around all the same and would have to be much cheaper.pattimagee wrote: ↑Jun 17, 2025I just think the speed to realizing the benefits in construction time and costs might be enough for this to make more sense than some of our other plans...dblarsen314 wrote: ↑Jun 17, 2025I've always loved the idea of utilizing the Oak Hill ROW for certain segments of a N/S line and then sending the line underground to allow for the construction of more centralized stations in some of our neighborhood commercial corridors. I'm not sure if this would in reality save any money, but having stations that support our current developments nodes as well as potential stations for in-fill TOD would be great to support existing neighborhoods and support new development.
I've made a fantasy map years ago regarding this idea that I'll see if I can find.
Looking from an outside perspective the idea or opportunity of N-S light rail or even beyond that we regional rail has been dead for years due to lack of political will from the county side. Why keep clinging to belief that will change. At same time face reality, City simply has just way too much land and needs way too much population gain to remotely entertain the idea that every industrial space, parcel and empty lot can be another mixed use development. Love that we dream on this blog but even our dreams get pointless at some point.
Instead, can't help but think that city leadership/metro path forward is value engineer current N-S into city streetcar for Feds buy in/funding & get the city to commit to keeping it fare free on a route that already has a lot of preliminary work in place. Gets you a north south spline desired in areas that have potential for near term north south development including Jefferson Ave in west downtown and in & around NGA. In the meantime, the big push is get much needed bus frequency on other north sough city corridors.
Instead, can't help but think that city leadership/metro path forward is value engineer current N-S into city streetcar for Feds buy in/funding & get the city to commit to keeping it fare free on a route that already has a lot of preliminary work in place. Gets you a north south spline desired in areas that have potential for near term north south development including Jefferson Ave in west downtown and in & around NGA. In the meantime, the big push is get much needed bus frequency on other north sough city corridors.
^I'm with you on this, for Metrolink to be successful, with the current system or expanded, the bus system needs to be way better than it is now. The lack of frequency and reliability need to be fixed if STL is ever going to be a car-optional (or even don't use your car to go everywhere) city.
I would be all for a N-S modern streetcar. I'd love for it to get to Natural Bridge and Kingshighway on the north and Jefferson and Chippewa to the south.dredger wrote: ↑Jun 17, 2025Looking from an outside perspective the idea or opportunity of N-S light rail or even beyond that we regional rail has been dead for years due to lack of political will from the county side. Why keep clinging to belief that will change. At same time face reality, City simply has just way too much land and needs way too much population gain to remotely entertain the idea that every industrial space, parcel and empty lot can be another mixed use development. Love that we dream on this blog but even our dreams get pointless at some point.
Instead, can't help but think that city leadership/metro path forward is value engineer current N-S into city streetcar for Feds buy in/funding & get the city to commit to keeping it fare free on a route that already has a lot of preliminary work in place. Gets you a north south spline desired in areas that have potential for near term north south development including Jefferson Ave in west downtown and in & around NGA. In the meantime, the big push is get much needed bus frequency on other north sough city corridors.
Has there ever been any talk about connecting Fairview Heights and O'Fallon with MetroLink? Since it's in Illinois, anything is possible.
Closest you'll get was the 2004 Madison County study.
https://www.ewgateway.org/wp-content/up ... pt-Apx.pdf
https://www.ewgateway.org/wp-content/up ... pt-Apx.pdf
I would also feel a lot better if they put together an alternative N-S plan (such as using the BNSF Carondelet sub for MetroLink). But again, that would take actual vision and want to make the city meaningfully better and be harder than just do a half-assed BRT.PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑Sep 26, 2025I agree with you they’ll end up regretting it & it will be money thrown down the drain but I’m not an expert so we’ll see what they’ll come up with yet again.
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I sense that having a Metra-style commuter rail that actually reached out to distant suburbs would make too much sense for this region. STL could have built out a DC style system in the 50’s and 60’s but unfortunately the car brain was too much.Auggie wrote:I would also feel a lot better if they put together an alternative N-S plan (such as using the BNSF Carondelet sub for MetroLink). But again, that would take actual vision and want to make the city meaningfully better and be harder than just do a half-assed BRT.PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑Sep 26, 2025I agree with you they’ll end up regretting it & it will be money thrown down the drain but I’m not an expert so we’ll see what they’ll come up with yet again.
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Just to set the record straight, I think Auggie meant the part of the UP (former Missouri Pacific, former St. Louis and Iron Mountain) Desoto Subdivision main called the "Oak Hill" line, which goes west from Grand, through the Hill, and down to Carondelet Park before joining a second line, the Lesperance Industrial lead, and heading south along the river past JB and eventually to Desoto and Poplar Bluff. That's a line that doesn't see a ton of traffic now, since the alternate route down the riverfront is generally more useful for freight, but Amtrak still uses the Oak Hill line. In a lot of ways it's similar to the NS/Wabash UD line that Metrolink picked up for the original line; a lightly used line that was primarily a passenger line, which has an easy alternate route for the parent railroad. BNSF does have lines in the area, but the closest parallel, the River Subdivision, is busier and not really as useful for Metrolink purposes anyway. And BNSF doesn't have any good alternates like the NS/Wabash and UP/MoPac did or do. The Oak Hill line was one of the proposed alignments when the N/S line was originally discussed, oh, thirty years ago now. I'm pretty sure that's what Auggie meant. So far as I know no one has proposed using any BNSF lines for anything. I think Auggie just misspoke.
This is what I meant. I mistook UP owning it for BNSF.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Sep 29, 2025Just to set the record straight, I think Auggie meant the part of the UP (former Missouri Pacific, former St. Louis and Iron Mountain) Desoto Subdivision main called the "Oak Hill" line, which goes west from Grand, through the Hill, and down to Carondelet Park before joining a second line, the Lesperance Industrial lead, and heading south along the river past JB and eventually to Desoto and Poplar Bluff. That's a line that doesn't see a ton of traffic now, since the alternate route down the riverfront is generally more useful for freight, but Amtrak still uses the Oak Hill line. In a lot of ways it's similar to the NS/Wabash UD line that Metrolink picked up for the original line; a lightly used line that was primarily a passenger line, which has an easy alternate route for the parent railroad. BNSF does have lines in the area, but the closest parallel, the River Subdivision, is busier and not really as useful for Metrolink purposes anyway. And BNSF doesn't have any good alternates like the NS/Wabash and UP/MoPac did or do. The Oak Hill line was one of the proposed alignments when the N/S line was originally discussed, oh, thirty years ago now. I'm pretty sure that's what Auggie meant. So far as I know no one has proposed using any BNSF lines for anything. I think Auggie just misspoke.
Commuter rail on that sub would rule IMO.symphonicpoet wrote:Just to set the record straight, I think Auggie meant the part of the UP (former Missouri Pacific, former St. Louis and Iron Mountain) Desoto Subdivision main called the "Oak Hill" line, which goes west from Grand, through the Hill, and down to Carondelet Park before joining a second line, the Lesperance Industrial lead, and heading south along the river past JB and eventually to Desoto and Poplar Bluff. That's a line that doesn't see a ton of traffic now, since the alternate route down the riverfront is generally more useful for freight, but Amtrak still uses the Oak Hill line. In a lot of ways it's similar to the NS/Wabash UD line that Metrolink picked up for the original line; a lightly used line that was primarily a passenger line, which has an easy alternate route for the parent railroad. BNSF does have lines in the area, but the closest parallel, the River Subdivision, is busier and not really as useful for Metrolink purposes anyway. And BNSF doesn't have any good alternates like the NS/Wabash and UP/MoPac did or do. The Oak Hill line was one of the proposed alignments when the N/S line was originally discussed, oh, thirty years ago now. I'm pretty sure that's what Auggie meant. So far as I know no one has proposed using any BNSF lines for anything. I think Auggie just misspoke.
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I'd love to get a figure on feasibility, cost, and potentially ridership of commuter rail to Kirkwood (maybe further?), south broadway, Alton, and all the way out to Wentzville or Wright City. Would just like to see what potential is there, if any.Fraydog wrote: ↑Sep 30, 2025Commuter rail on that sub would rule IMO.symphonicpoet wrote:Just to set the record straight, I think Auggie meant the part of the UP (former Missouri Pacific, former St. Louis and Iron Mountain) Desoto Subdivision main called the "Oak Hill" line, which goes west from Grand, through the Hill, and down to Carondelet Park before joining a second line, the Lesperance Industrial lead, and heading south along the river past JB and eventually to Desoto and Poplar Bluff. That's a line that doesn't see a ton of traffic now, since the alternate route down the riverfront is generally more useful for freight, but Amtrak still uses the Oak Hill line. In a lot of ways it's similar to the NS/Wabash UD line that Metrolink picked up for the original line; a lightly used line that was primarily a passenger line, which has an easy alternate route for the parent railroad. BNSF does have lines in the area, but the closest parallel, the River Subdivision, is busier and not really as useful for Metrolink purposes anyway. And BNSF doesn't have any good alternates like the NS/Wabash and UP/MoPac did or do. The Oak Hill line was one of the proposed alignments when the N/S line was originally discussed, oh, thirty years ago now. I'm pretty sure that's what Auggie meant. So far as I know no one has proposed using any BNSF lines for anything. I think Auggie just misspoke.
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Certainly the line through South City should be used for transit, be it light rail or commuter. I would also like a way to go to Kirkwood or Webster Groves without having to drive and park.
Someone referenced the old Union Pacific Railroad alignment proposed back in 2007...thought I'd post the map just for fun.
I'm expanding off the 2013 study, prioritizing Lindell-Olive, and 14th Street. (Using the existing Civic Center Station as a transfer point). This starter line has the potential to expand south into Foulard, La Salle, and Peabody & north to Preservation Sq. and Old North.
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Sometimes I think about how Metrolink in terms of how it could be made easier, cheaper, and even one station at a time... and I always come back to the Shrewsbury stop... And forgive my ignorance on this... but it always feels like that south hook presents and opportunity to just take that line back down Chippewa one stop at a time... and then curl it back downtown when it hits Gravois. And then the Blue Line becomes the Blue Loop eventually - would hit a ton of the denser population blocks.
^here here
A blue loop, a red loop, and one of Grand/Jefferson/Kingshighway N/S Line would be good enough for the next 20-50 years. Instead, we've had 20-50 years of studies.pattimagee wrote: ↑Sep 30, 2025Sometimes I think about how Metrolink in terms of how it could be made easier, cheaper, and even one station at a time... and I always come back to the Shrewsbury stop... And forgive my ignorance on this... but it always feels like that south hook presents and opportunity to just take that line back down Chippewa one stop at a time... and then curl it back downtown when it hits Gravois. And then the Blue Line becomes the Blue Loop eventually - would hit a ton of the denser population blocks.
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I suppose it isn't as cost effective to incrementally build out lines, but we are a poor city in a state with poor funding opportunities. Sometimes when times are tough you need to buy the 4pck of toilet paper instead of bulk.
Expanding off Shrewsbury would still technically be N/S.
Expanding off Shrewsbury would still technically be N/S.
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Necropost, but repealing the Jones Act would be a great start heredelmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Jun 13, 2025The biggest advantage STL has for this topic is its geographically central location. As we have learned over 200 years, that probably can be leveraged more. That probably means figuring out how to be an airport hub and having the facilities to support these events.
Could we use the money allocated to just buy more trains so we can reduce headways to 5-8min across the system?
The problem is train drivers not trains.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Oct 01, 2025Could we use the money allocated to just buy more trains so we can reduce headways to 5-8min across the system?
I remember when Metro ran Metrolink every 10 minutes during rush hour and 15 minutes all day. So between Forest Park and Fairview Heights that was 5-8 minutes. Metro could do it again if they felt like it but they don't care very much about providing quality service and there's not enough pressure on them from local politicians to make it better. That's the mixed blessing of an intercounty bi state agency, no one local elected feels like it's their responsibility.
It's actually worse since bus drivers are harder to hire. In Indianapolis, it's not uncommon for the Red or Purple Line to be cut down to 30-45 minute frequencies because they need drivers for other routes.
This would be my nerdy (semi-realistic) fantasy MetroLink/BRT map for the next 10-15 years.
The Green Line (rail) would use the Red/Blue right-of-way until the Union Pacific tracks and then utilize that ROW until I-55.
The Orange Line (BRT) would connect from North Hanley Metrolink Station at the north/west end and use Natural Bridge ROW with a dedicated lane to Grand, then south on Grand to Red/Blue Line MetroLink Station.
The Purple Line (BRT) would connect from Shrewsbury Metrolink running down Lansdowne to Chippewa, then Chippewa eastward to Grand, then Grand northward to the Red/Blue Metrolink.
If Grand were deemed not wide enough for dedicated bus lanes, then Jefferson (below) is obviously a possible alternate, given that it's been studied to death:
(Side note: I just found that MetroMapMaker site but it is a ton of nerdy fun lol).
The Green Line (rail) would use the Red/Blue right-of-way until the Union Pacific tracks and then utilize that ROW until I-55.
The Orange Line (BRT) would connect from North Hanley Metrolink Station at the north/west end and use Natural Bridge ROW with a dedicated lane to Grand, then south on Grand to Red/Blue Line MetroLink Station.
The Purple Line (BRT) would connect from Shrewsbury Metrolink running down Lansdowne to Chippewa, then Chippewa eastward to Grand, then Grand northward to the Red/Blue Metrolink.
If Grand were deemed not wide enough for dedicated bus lanes, then Jefferson (below) is obviously a possible alternate, given that it's been studied to death:
(Side note: I just found that MetroMapMaker site but it is a ton of nerdy fun lol).