I don't know if anyone has checked out the Business Journal yet this weekend, but Metro took out a full page ad with a tagline saying "Think Big" and a map showing a fleshed out metrolink system. On the map there are probably 7-8 different color coded lines. The map differs from the map on the Citizens for Modern Transit website. It even shows lines running out to St Charles (when pigs fly, but hey hopeful thinking) Anyway, I don't have a scanner, but hopefully someone will add a picture of the map to the website. It's interesting to see how Metro views the expansion of Metrolink. (Hopefully we'll see it in our lifetimes.)
Hmmm. will have to see that - I like!
This map was done by someone (sorry I don't have) on the Skyscrapers Pages. I think it is close to what is "envisioned", but not with the lines to St. Chuck.
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This map was done by someone (sorry I don't have) on the Skyscrapers Pages. I think it is close to what is "envisioned", but not with the lines to St. Chuck.
It would be intersting to see the map, hope someone can scan it. The one above, though, concerns me. That map shows no line going through south city and out into south county to meet up with the cross county line. Why such a line would not be on there makes no sense, because the studies by EWG have shown that the greatest support and most potental riders would be added by going through south city and into south county. Instead this map shows a line going through north city. Oh well, it would be nice to have both line. But gotta have the south line come first because of the greater potental for increased ridership.
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I think that map was made by our own Xing and these are lines that will be completed by 2015 or something.
Yes, it was made by xing, so I guess he could answer any questions about lines. I too would like to see the biz journal map. Urbanstlouis, you get it too don't you.
I think I've seen this map before, but the map in the Business Journal was different. It had 2 lines each running north and south in the city, a line from E STL running south to Columbia I think. It also had a SW line that ran to Webster Groves and split, with one leg going to Maryville University and one leg going to Fenton. And it had a weird line that looked like it ran from NE County to Maryville University also. It was a lot of stuff that I hadn't seen before (Especially the St. Chas Lines) Hopefully Someone will scan it.
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The IL Metro lines are almost three times the length of the MO lines!!! That seems crazy? Yes, Metro does need to expand to south city, south county, but north city/county is also important to develop the depressed areas up north like Florissant Avenue and Natural Bridge, there are bars on those doors and windows for a reason on Nat. Bridge. A Metro line would bring reinvestment, which the north is more than desperate for whether south city is not sparkling everywhere south's progressing on its own.
I have heard support for Metro even as south as Loughborough and Morganford where I purchased my violin and get it repaired at Geoffrey Seitz's shop. He's a favorite of Symphony members and it would be fun to ride Metro from Hanley to Grand or CWE station and take a line south to Loughborough/Morganford to get my violin and bow taken care of. Sorry, I'm not a bus person, it's not reliable to noncity residents, and I like the fun driving tours of south city on my own.
I have heard support for Metro even as south as Loughborough and Morganford where I purchased my violin and get it repaired at Geoffrey Seitz's shop. He's a favorite of Symphony members and it would be fun to ride Metro from Hanley to Grand or CWE station and take a line south to Loughborough/Morganford to get my violin and bow taken care of. Sorry, I'm not a bus person, it's not reliable to noncity residents, and I like the fun driving tours of south city on my own.
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This is totally wrong there is no point speculating.
edit: The priorities for studying MetroLink lines haven't established any preferred routes, only which corridors will be preferred. As of now even the South County extension (i.e. MetroSouth) is not set. I'll post the priority of routes studied later when I can find them...
edit: The priorities for studying MetroLink lines haven't established any preferred routes, only which corridors will be preferred. As of now even the South County extension (i.e. MetroSouth) is not set. I'll post the priority of routes studied later when I can find them...
That map was sort of a dream map, what xing wanted to see, if I remember correctly. So obviously it is not official.
I think what brickandmortar is refering too is only the extension of the cross county line into south county (http://www.metrosouthstudy.org/overview) The line i was refering to was that fleshed out in the following file from 2000, which i belive is the basis for xing's map showing the route for north city and county. http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/libra ... AltRpt.pdf
I agree that a line into north city would help investment in the area. Think what a direct line into downtown could mean of some of the areas in old north city. But at the same time, if one is thinking of expanding metrolink, growing ridership is what will speak to lawmakers when looking for funding and it seems like the 2000 report shows that the south city extension could increase ridership alot more.
I agree that a line into north city would help investment in the area. Think what a direct line into downtown could mean of some of the areas in old north city. But at the same time, if one is thinking of expanding metrolink, growing ridership is what will speak to lawmakers when looking for funding and it seems like the 2000 report shows that the south city extension could increase ridership alot more.
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I've seen a lot of different maps for MetroLink, sorry if my previous post came across mean, it wasn't intended.
The point of this board is to make grand speculations of the way we feel about the future of St. Louis
The point of this board is to make grand speculations of the way we feel about the future of St. Louis
Sorry guys. Internet will be cut off for a couple of days, or maybe just hours. Let me answer your questions about the map.
First, this is not official, but a guess as to how it may look by 2015. I have another map based on all lines proposed, including a south side line. Unfortunately, there has been no date proposed for the south city line, like there is for the others, and that is why I did not includ it. I had no idea about the stations, and as a result, I used a city map to assume where they may be placed. Those are most definitely not official.
Also, most likely, one of those Illinois lines will be cut out. I included 2 different proposed lines for Madison County.
First, this is not official, but a guess as to how it may look by 2015. I have another map based on all lines proposed, including a south side line. Unfortunately, there has been no date proposed for the south city line, like there is for the others, and that is why I did not includ it. I had no idea about the stations, and as a result, I used a city map to assume where they may be placed. Those are most definitely not official.
Also, most likely, one of those Illinois lines will be cut out. I included 2 different proposed lines for Madison County.
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The Madison County extensions are only part of a feasibility study currently. The Northside and Southside extensions (North & South City) were part of a greater Major Transportation Investment Analysis (MTIA) (as well as Daniel Boone fka West County). Recently, East-West Gateway was awarded tax credits to further study the Northside and Southside corridors. This post on Citizen's for Modern Transit summarizes that deal:
http://www.cmt-stl.org/new/new.html#tax
Put simply, Madison County has been studied for only thousands of dollars as a preliminary study. Whereas, Northside and Southside are moving towards millions of dollars for finalizing their study. Still, even if recommendations come out of that study (no final recommendation came out of Metro South or Cross County Phase II), Metro won't have the money to build or operate anything beyond the current line under construction, unless an additional sales tax or state funding were allocated.
Since the early 1990s, the adopted priorities for MetroLink expansion beyond the original line (1993) were:
Group I: Belleville (2001), St. Charles (on-hold due to lack of political support), Cross County (I: 2007, II aka Metro South/Butler Hill: study finished without recommendation & III aka Merto North/Florissant on-hold)
Group II: Northside (to finalize study), Southside (to finalize study), Daniel Boone (needs matching funds from St. Louis Co.)
Group III: Madison/Edwardsville (preliminary study), Northeast/Alton (preliminary study), Southwest/Kirkwood
http://www.cmt-stl.org/new/new.html#tax
Put simply, Madison County has been studied for only thousands of dollars as a preliminary study. Whereas, Northside and Southside are moving towards millions of dollars for finalizing their study. Still, even if recommendations come out of that study (no final recommendation came out of Metro South or Cross County Phase II), Metro won't have the money to build or operate anything beyond the current line under construction, unless an additional sales tax or state funding were allocated.
Since the early 1990s, the adopted priorities for MetroLink expansion beyond the original line (1993) were:
Group I: Belleville (2001), St. Charles (on-hold due to lack of political support), Cross County (I: 2007, II aka Metro South/Butler Hill: study finished without recommendation & III aka Merto North/Florissant on-hold)
Group II: Northside (to finalize study), Southside (to finalize study), Daniel Boone (needs matching funds from St. Louis Co.)
Group III: Madison/Edwardsville (preliminary study), Northeast/Alton (preliminary study), Southwest/Kirkwood
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^thanks southslider, I was looking for that info myself.
take my map lightly then. I have another that has all proposed routes, except I dont think it includes St Charles.
Ah, I have been looking everywhere for this. You wont find it on their site anymore, but thankfully I saved it. Interesting, isn't it?
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They should do the Northside line next. What a boon to the northside it would be. Really interesting map.
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Looks like the southside expansion completely bypasses Soulard, South Grand, etc. It would be so great to take MetroLink from downtown to Soulard - maybe a trolley system could be implemented at some point.
A trolley would be great. Even if it just ran from the Bottle district to the brewery. Wouldn't that have come in handy this weekend.
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No to the Northside, it's just canibalizing their buses, unless they've decided on scrapping them. The best bet is to run a park and ride express line out to far west county, run it 10x a day, 5x in the morning (7am-9am), 5x in the evening (4pm-6pm), and that's it. Have like 4 stops, Chesterfield, Town & Country, Creve Coeur, Olivette/Ladue Use it just for business rush, and if it proves to be viable, extend the hours to full. A great station location is the already buit bus transfer station on Ballas & 40 in Creve Coeur. With gas costs increasing, and what would be an essentially all upperclass, white (lets not kid ourselves here) line until it hits clayton, the suburbanites would be far more likely to ride the train. And when 40 becomes a parking lot due to the renovations, it'll be far more useful than lines further into south city or north county, whose residents don't even use 40.
OH god no! Your proposal is like expanding LA's metro to Beverly Hills, before it goes to East LA.
Codascoram is right on in two regards:
First, routing Metrolink north out of downtown will only canablize the exzisting bus system. In many ways that seems unesscary. Besides, I personaly belive that the nothern route would have the least political support. (Putting a route out west would bring alot more support Metro's way)
Second, if and when I-64/ US 40 is expanded, travel will be slow going from all points west of 270 into Clayton and Downtown. It would take more study to see how many riders such a line could attract, however, the construction on the highway might provide the only impetus one can imagein to get people from West county to take Metrolink too and from work.
Codascoram is wrong however, as the line best set for expansion would be a line through South St. Louis city and into the county, meeting up with the cross county line as the map shows. Many of the area's serviced by such a line are the most stable the city has to offer and such a plan would no doubt bolster these area's. Sure a line to the north could spark the creation of everyone's favorit buzzword (TOD's), but if people are intersted in the long term success and expansion of Metrolink, it needs to expand south. Such as line has a better chance for even remotly breaking even and adding enough new riders to create the type of excitment needed to pass tax increases to pay for this stuff.
First, routing Metrolink north out of downtown will only canablize the exzisting bus system. In many ways that seems unesscary. Besides, I personaly belive that the nothern route would have the least political support. (Putting a route out west would bring alot more support Metro's way)
Second, if and when I-64/ US 40 is expanded, travel will be slow going from all points west of 270 into Clayton and Downtown. It would take more study to see how many riders such a line could attract, however, the construction on the highway might provide the only impetus one can imagein to get people from West county to take Metrolink too and from work.
Codascoram is wrong however, as the line best set for expansion would be a line through South St. Louis city and into the county, meeting up with the cross county line as the map shows. Many of the area's serviced by such a line are the most stable the city has to offer and such a plan would no doubt bolster these area's. Sure a line to the north could spark the creation of everyone's favorit buzzword (TOD's), but if people are intersted in the long term success and expansion of Metrolink, it needs to expand south. Such as line has a better chance for even remotly breaking even and adding enough new riders to create the type of excitment needed to pass tax increases to pay for this stuff.
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Outside of the City, Prop M got the most support in North County and Mid-County, not South or West County. So, building it where there's current support wouldn't be anywhere west of Westport or south of Shrewsbury.
But will public transit continue to be a tax as you build system? The public coffers are empty, or at least consumed by other drains. So why not think outside of the box?
The only reason expansion will now be studied for North and South City is due to the sale of economic credits by downtown loft developers to finance the study.
I say let any corridor of the region willing to densify itself have priority, then transit could be bond-financed by a TDD-like mechanism. And if there's land and political will in the City, added density wouldn't be cannabilizing the buses.
So, we can build any direction, with or without current ridership or taxpayer support, but ultimately we need to be willing to build denser land development within a corridor. Otherwise, you can forget any cost-effective MetroLink line, north, south, east or west.
But will public transit continue to be a tax as you build system? The public coffers are empty, or at least consumed by other drains. So why not think outside of the box?
The only reason expansion will now be studied for North and South City is due to the sale of economic credits by downtown loft developers to finance the study.
I say let any corridor of the region willing to densify itself have priority, then transit could be bond-financed by a TDD-like mechanism. And if there's land and political will in the City, added density wouldn't be cannabilizing the buses.
So, we can build any direction, with or without current ridership or taxpayer support, but ultimately we need to be willing to build denser land development within a corridor. Otherwise, you can forget any cost-effective MetroLink line, north, south, east or west.