urbanSTL

Using existing train row hasn’t been a successful method for us in the past. Just look at how poorly placed many of our stations are.

moorlander wrote: ↑

Oct 01, 2025

Using existing train row hasn’t been a successful method for us in the past. Just look at how poorly placed many of our stations are.

Hmm...to me it's more cost effective than in-street rail and isn't as bad as it's made out to be. Which current Red Line/Blue Line stop within City Limits do you find particularly poorly located? Grand is probably the most egregiously industrial in character but has seen considerable development in the vicinity regardless (proposed data center notwithstanding). The Downtown stations are excellent and the Central West End station serves the Medical Center very well, if not the more residential/mixed use side of Euclid.

The CWE station would be better at FPA and Euclid. Same for Grand and Cortex.

quincunx wrote: ↑

Oct 01, 2025

The CWE station would be better at FOA and Euclid. Same for Grand and Cortex.

That's hard to disagree with. That said, the current placements work fine, in my opinion, at a lesser cost that may have justified them. 

They work fine if we encourage large scale TOD around them, which we don’t (see the Armory fiasco). For gods sake the Grand station is flanked by a parking lot and huge stockpile of highly volatile chemicals.

I don't think Metrolink would have been built at all had it not been for the availability of railroad right of way, and so very, very little is anything else that I think it's odd to say such use has been problematic. Not every site is ideal, but when are they? To wit, the only new ROW on the red line is the line across 170 into the airport, the tunnel under Union Station (which was already there, just not as a railroad tunnel), and a little bit in East St. Louis. The rest of it is a mix of Wabash/NS, TRRA, and L&N/CSX RoW. Even the Blue Line makes use of some. Little known fact: Forest Park Parkway from Clayton to Debaliviere was the Rock Island's passenger RoW before they abandoned it in the twenties or thirties. (And past Debaliviere it parallels the Wabash UD line, which is now Metrolinl. Which is why that was such an easy route.) And of course the line from Clayton south to Shrewsbury is the former TRRA West Belt, so even the blue line is mostly old RR RoW. That's why that all fits together so well. It was always a part of the same network, and it all converged on Union Station. I'd love to see intercity rail next to Metrolink in some places, but that's not necessarily impossible, just expensive. You see that kind of thing all over the place in areas that still have a decent passenger rail network and good urban transit. (Chicago, DC, and London, for instance.)

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2025

I don't think Metrolink would have been built at all had it not been for the availability of railroad right of way, and so very, very little is anything else that I think it's odd to say such use has been problematic. Not every site is ideal, but when are they? To wit, the only new ROW on the red line is the line across 170 into the airport, the tunnel under Union Station (which was already there, just not as a railroad tunnel), and a little bit in East St. Louis. The rest of it is a mix of Wabash/NS, TRRA, and L&N/CSX RoW. Even the Blue Line makes use of some. Little known fact: Forest Park Parkway from Clayton to Debaliviere was the Rock Island's passenger RoW before they abandoned it in the twenties or thirties. (And past Debaliviere it parallels the Wabash UD line, which is now Metrolinl. Which is why that was such an easy route.) And of course the line from Clayton south to Shrewsbury is the former TRRA West Belt, so even the blue line is mostly old RR RoW. That's why that all fits together so well. It was always a part of the same network, and it all converged on Union Station. I'd love to see intercity rail next to Metrolink in some places, but that's not necessarily impossible, just expensive. You see that kind of thing all over the place in areas that still have a decent passenger rail network and good urban transit. (Chicago, DC, and London, for instance.)

Exactly my point -- in an ideal world, we'd just build for maximum ridership regardless of costs involved with right-of-way acquisition but we're not set up to do so (shrinking or stagnant population, physically expanding and decentralizing region, limited state funding and support for transit, etc.).

If anyone wants to advocate for Metrolink expansion in city limits, existing rail rights-of-way should probably be the path forward (i.e., the Union Pacific ROW).

stldotage wrote: ↑

Oct 01, 2025

moorlander wrote: ↑

Oct 01, 2025

Using existing train row hasn’t been a successful method for us in the past. Just look at how poorly placed many of our stations are.

Hmm...to me it's more cost effective than in-street rail and isn't as bad as it's made out to be. Which current Red Line/Blue Line stop within City Limits do you find particularly poorly located? Grand is probably the most egregiously industrial in character but has seen considerable development in the vicinity regardless (proposed data center notwithstanding). The Downtown stations are excellent and the Central West End station serves the Medical Center very well, if not the more residential/mixed use side of Euclid.

I would add that their is definite difference in how city has had more TOD related development happen which in part is by default stldotage where as the county has been dismal.  Even worse for county after expansion and Richmond Heights/Galleria, Brentwood and Manchester are all great opportunities to infill
 more densely.

I really do think the city going alone on N-S streetcar/fare free is way better approach then BRT at end of day.   Just think the city could benefit from some North South corridor streetcars that tie into metrolink and admit/move on from the political reality of the County,    Grand Ave and Broadway would be 2nd and 3rd choice respectively after N-S Jefferson Ave streetcar alignment.    Think as it in terms of the city and airport leadership deciding not to try and sell out Lambert but instead kept control while making a legitimate effort/comittment to finally invest in/replace the outdated gates.  In other words, quit waiting on the county or bending to there politics and make a legit transit investment that benefits city for what it wants to be.

I agree that the City's transit planning should not be contingent on County planning.

I just don't think the City is ever going to win federal funds for an in-street rail project again after the Loop Trolley debacle. The ridership projection for the proposed Green Line was depressingly low and the only place the city is adding population and densifying is already served by rail transit. I sincerely hope I'm wrong but I see rail expansion as dead in the water unless you can trim cost-per-mile massively (via, say, using an existing rail right-of-way).

stldotage wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2025

I agree that the City's transit planning should not be contingent on County planning.

I just don't think the City is ever going to win federal funds for an in-street rail project again after the Loop Trolley debacle. The ridership projection for the proposed Green Line was depressingly low and the only place the city is adding population and densifying is already served by rail transit. I sincerely hope I'm wrong but I see rail expansion as dead in the water unless you can trim cost-per-mile massively (via, say, using an existing rail right-of-way).

The ridership projection was perfectly fine for a $1.1B 5.6 mile line. This obsession with the ridership is so weird and out of place when other proposed lines costing way more and going way further did not have exceedingly more riders. I listed them in the N-S thread.

Auggie wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2025

stldotage wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2025

I agree that the City's transit planning should not be contingent on County planning.

I just don't think the City is ever going to win federal funds for an in-street rail project again after the Loop Trolley debacle. The ridership projection for the proposed Green Line was depressingly low and the only place the city is adding population and densifying is already served by rail transit. I sincerely hope I'm wrong but I see rail expansion as dead in the water unless you can trim cost-per-mile massively (via, say, using an existing rail right-of-way).

The ridership projection was perfectly fine for a $1.1B 5.6 mile line. This obsession with the ridership is so weird and out of place when other proposed lines costing way more and going way further did not have exceedingly more riders. I listed them in the N-S thread.

I agree, there are cities building light rail lines that cost multi-billions of dollars and their projections are not so great. It's much more about how our regional government operates. The fact that a metropolitan area of nearly 3 million people can't build a 5 mile light rail extension when we already have nearly 50 miles of light rail across 2 states is and should be seen as a complete civic failure and is more indictive of our lack of leadership. Realistically, this project should have been built 20 years ago. We should already have a line from South County Center to Ferguson, and probably even a Westport line. Blaming cost estimates and the feds is a complete cop out for a lack of regional vision and leadership.

goat314 wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2025

Auggie wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2025

stldotage wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2025

I agree that the City's transit planning should not be contingent on County planning.

I just don't think the City is ever going to win federal funds for an in-street rail project again after the Loop Trolley debacle. The ridership projection for the proposed Green Line was depressingly low and the only place the city is adding population and densifying is already served by rail transit. I sincerely hope I'm wrong but I see rail expansion as dead in the water unless you can trim cost-per-mile massively (via, say, using an existing rail right-of-way).

The ridership projection was perfectly fine for a $1.1B 5.6 mile line. This obsession with the ridership is so weird and out of place when other proposed lines costing way more and going way further did not have exceedingly more riders. I listed them in the N-S thread.

I agree, there are cities building light rail lines that cost multi-billions of dollars and their projections are not so great. It's much more about how our regional government operates. The fact that a metropolitan area of nearly 3 million people can't build a 5 mile light rail extension when we already have nearly 50 miles of light rail across 2 states is and should be seen as a complete civic failure and is more indictive of our lack of leadership. Realistically, this project should have been built 20 years ago. We should already have a line from South County Center to Ferguson, and probably even a Westport line. Blaming cost estimates and the feds is a complete cop out for a lack of regional vision and leadership.

Blaming cost also is a capitulation of rail based transit in general. It is an admission that we will never get more rail based transit because right now is when it is cheapest to do it.

I don't get how we "deserve" multiple trans-Atlantic flights, but city residents don't deserve a high level of transit, using a technology that we already have. We are just expected to settle for branded buses. I think we deserve both.

Auggie wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2025

goat314 wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2025

Auggie wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2025

The ridership projection was perfectly fine for a $1.1B 5.6 mile line. This obsession with the ridership is so weird and out of place when other proposed lines costing way more and going way further did not have exceedingly more riders. I listed them in the N-S thread.

I agree, there are cities building light rail lines that cost multi-billions of dollars and their projections are not so great. It's much more about how our regional government operates. The fact that a metropolitan area of nearly 3 million people can't build a 5 mile light rail extension when we already have nearly 50 miles of light rail across 2 states is and should be seen as a complete civic failure and is more indictive of our lack of leadership. Realistically, this project should have been built 20 years ago. We should already have a line from South County Center to Ferguson, and probably even a Westport line. Blaming cost estimates and the feds is a complete cop out for a lack of regional vision and leadership.

Blaming cost also is a capitulation of rail based transit in general. It is an admission that we will never get more rail based transit because right now is when it is cheapest to do it.

I don't get how we "deserve" multiple trans-Atlantic flights, but city residents don't deserve a high level of transit, using a technology that we already have. We are just expected to settle for branded buses. I think we deserve both.

Exactly, and I don't see how you can justify $400M on a BRT line of a similar length. Especially when operational costs are probably even higher considering the driver shortage. When you also concede that BRT will also not yield any significant development, it seems like a total boondoggle waiting to happen. Also, it would have been nice to see a compromise for a modern streetcar system like KC is building. I always said modern streetcar may have been a better approach than what was being built as N-S Metrolink.

You are also absolutely right about costs. It is never going to get cheaper and unless there is some major federal shift, funding for this sort of systems will continue to be extremely competitive. I wish regional leaders would just be straight shooters and tell the people that we have no plans to ever expand metro or be competitive with other regions.

I do find it funny that we're having this debate while Metrolink is in the middle of an expansion. It's not the expansion I want. It's not the one I think would be the most useful. Barely useful at all, really, but isn't Metrolink presently building an extension to MidAmerica and the Metro East Boeing plant? All of which is just one more indication how much of a failure Spencer's stance on Metrolink has been. With a little leadership I feel there's every reason to think we'd get Green Line done. The justification, service a fancy new job center, is more or less identical. The land is essentially already acquired, since it's public right of way. It's just greasing it past local opposition and maybe getting some kind of federal match, but the truth is we've got the money for it if we're willing to spend it. Invest some Kroenke cash. Build the thing. Use it to encourage denser development, improve the tax revenue. With a bit of luck it might even pay for itself.

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑

Oct 03, 2025

I do find it funny that we're having this debate while Metrolink is in the middle of an expansion. It's not the expansion I want. It's not the one I think would be the most useful. Barely useful at all, really, but isn't Metrolink presently building an extension to MidAmerica and the Metro East Boeing plant? All of which is just one more indication how much of a failure Spencer's stance on Metrolink has been. With a little leadership I feel there's every reason to think we'd get Green Line done. The justification, service a fancy new job center, is more or less identical. The land is essentially already acquired, since it's public right of way. It's just greasing it past local opposition and maybe getting some kind of federal match, but the truth is we've got the money for it if we're willing to spend it. Invest some Kroenke cash. Build the thing. Use it to encourage denser development, improve the tax revenue. With a bit of luck it might even pay for itself.

Well St. Clair County does have the support of the state, which covered like $100M of the $150M cost. Half of it is also single-tracked.

Auggie wrote:https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... -plan.html

Illinois' infrastructure plan is, as always, far more impressive and all encompassing than Missouri's.

I think it would be very easy for St. Clair to get a MetroLink extension to O'Fallon or Madison County to get one to Edwardsville if they actually wanted it. I definitely feel like most future expansions are gonna be on the East side moving forward.

IL can always just fund it at the state level and go around Madison County being part of the funding process.


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Yeah I know there was some sales tax referendum for metrolink to Madison County in the 90s which failed. I dunno, it's gotten rather more Republican over the years I tend to doubt they'd approve it now either.

PeterXCV wrote: ↑

Oct 03, 2025

Yeah I know there was some sales tax referendum for metrolink to Madison County in the 90s which failed. I dunno, it's gotten rather more Republican over the years I tend to doubt they'd approve it now either.

Noteably, however, it is white-working class style "Republicans", not more traditional ones you'd see in St. Charles or West County. In 2016, Madison County voted for Bernie Sanders by 11 points in the primary. These people oppose MetroLink not because they don't like transit, it's because they are racist and radicalized by MAGA. Madison County still runs a bus service with over 1.5 million yearly riders, despite also claiming to want to secede from Illinois.

I'm curious how he believes the Green line with its dedicated RoW and signal priority is similar to KC streetcar, and I'd really like to know what necromancy he plans to employ to . . . let's say hire more bus drivers for more busses when he can't fill the ones he's got. This has to be one of the most bone-headed press releases I've read . . . oh . . . this week. (It's been that kind of year.) I won't add his bust to my hall of St. Louis Villains just yet, but the voting is still open for the class of 2025.

Agree with you about Taulby Roach, did anyone subject themselves to the radio interview? I assume it was longer than the text.

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑

Oct 07, 2025

I'm curious how he believes the Green line with its dedicated RoW and signal priority is similar to KC streetcar, and I'd really like to know what necromancy he plans to employ to . . . let's say hire more bus drivers for more busses when he can't fill the ones he's got. This has to be one of the most bone-headed press releases I've read . . . oh . . . this week. (It's been that kind of year.) I won't add his bust to my hall of St. Louis Villains just yet, but the voting is still open for the class of 2025.

Roach is just doing what the electeds tell him to do. It's not really his fault if it's incredibly stupid and short sighted.

Nah don't give him that much credit, I don't think he wanted the green line cancelled but Metro's governance is terrible and Roach is clearly out of his depth.

BTW, the most detailed subway builder game ever is about to release its beta. You can choose specific geographic locations and operationally plan services in high detail. I expect to see some proposals from this group.

https://punishedbacklog.com/subway-buil ... rnet-hype/