Bid is out to reopen D.
Southwest adds 2 more gates.
Delta goes into the end of C.
United goes into D.
Air Canada into C
Southwest adds 2 more gates.
Delta goes into the end of C.
United goes into D.
Air Canada into C
+4
Delta going out to the end of C will be interesting. Those end of C gates are the raised/higher gates from the old TWA days when they flew stuff like L1011s, 747s etc. Could be some interesting sky bridge setups.
Would this also be prep for future Concourse as you will need to shuffle airline/gates around so you can sequence the buildout? Getting gates reactivated now makes a lot of sense.
I can also see single linear concourse incorporating modular construction. Building the gates while foundations being laid and the sequence becomes a lot more quicker, shorter timeline. Time is money.
I can also see single linear concourse incorporating modular construction. Building the gates while foundations being laid and the sequence becomes a lot more quicker, shorter timeline. Time is money.
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Interesting that SW is adding 2 gates. I was concerned with some noise about current US travel and their market share.
Especially the recent chest thumping out of Nashville about the flights added by SW there.STLCityMike wrote: ↑May 24, 2025Interesting that SW is adding 2 gates. I was concerned with some noise about current US travel and their market share.
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I feel like if there were going to be any hub movement (not actually expecting this) it is a perfect time to talk to St. Louis. We have runway capacity, a great central location without all the snow that is up north (Chicago, Detroit, Minneapolis) and a new terminal going in. One can dream 
The airport is going to feel/ look way different with everything out of A.
As for any "new" hubs... you hear this I'm every city... airlines (especially the legacies) are not opening new hubs and not for foreseeable future.
The demand is flat. The cost is astronomical. The networks don't need them. They will continue to build onto their hubs now as more mega (unfriendly / inconvenience) hubs. Moving into a new hub is just not feasible or warranted.
STL is lucky to have a Southwest (Hub) and it looks like they plan to expand more connection traffic with more gates even before our new airport comes online.
As for Concourse A... it is nice, but I'm reality it isn't needed and hasn't been since TWA left. But again, airlines dont like to pay for shuffling (unless necessary for improvements). So that is why A has maintained its prominence at STL for 24 years after TWA.
I can see possibly AA cutting back on ORD Chicago some ..especially feeders with their new expansion opening in DFW Dallas. AA planned STL / TWA base to become just that. But 9/11 changed those plans and shift in travel design as well. But as ORD United growth there... it locks AA a little more in. With the new terminal in STL, I can see some new feeder routes being added back here. They still filter a lot of people throught and O&D here in STL. Their demand after TWA has stayed strong O&D in this market as well.
The win here is more connection traffic on Southwest with more gate expansion now. With their T2 baggage limitations ... they most likely are not looking at O&D as much as connections. They also was international EU and this would set them up nicely in their own terminal T2.
As for any "new" hubs... you hear this I'm every city... airlines (especially the legacies) are not opening new hubs and not for foreseeable future.
The demand is flat. The cost is astronomical. The networks don't need them. They will continue to build onto their hubs now as more mega (unfriendly / inconvenience) hubs. Moving into a new hub is just not feasible or warranted.
STL is lucky to have a Southwest (Hub) and it looks like they plan to expand more connection traffic with more gates even before our new airport comes online.
As for Concourse A... it is nice, but I'm reality it isn't needed and hasn't been since TWA left. But again, airlines dont like to pay for shuffling (unless necessary for improvements). So that is why A has maintained its prominence at STL for 24 years after TWA.
I can see possibly AA cutting back on ORD Chicago some ..especially feeders with their new expansion opening in DFW Dallas. AA planned STL / TWA base to become just that. But 9/11 changed those plans and shift in travel design as well. But as ORD United growth there... it locks AA a little more in. With the new terminal in STL, I can see some new feeder routes being added back here. They still filter a lot of people throught and O&D here in STL. Their demand after TWA has stayed strong O&D in this market as well.
The win here is more connection traffic on Southwest with more gate expansion now. With their T2 baggage limitations ... they most likely are not looking at O&D as much as connections. They also was international EU and this would set them up nicely in their own terminal T2.
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^I'm curious to see what will become of Southwest now that they're being forced to become even more of a "legacy" carrier. I think it was a mistake to do away with the free bag policy, but I've been thinking they were in a grow or die situation for a while now, and with the changes I'm really inclined to believe that. And growing was going to require some significant changes anyway, so maybe this was the time to make them. The legacy carriers have no need for new hubs, but everyone can use better service through the hubs they've got, and Southwest definitely has one here now. So here's to hoping they can grow their way out of this mess.
The DFW will have have a higher proportion of widebody gates which cost more per gate.NHampton wrote:DFW has doubled the size/cost of its new terminal project (adding a sixth terminal to the airport), from $1.7B and 15 gates to $4B, 31 gates. The terminal will be "self supported," with its own baggage claim, check in, and parking garage, linking to the rest of the airport via a new station on a pre-existing people mover.
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... erminal-f/
A Dallas architecture critic notes that the design is functional, but not extraordinary.
https://www.dallasnews.com/arts-enterta ... erminal-f/
I am tempering my expectations for a showpiece terminal in STL. This DFW project, already in progress (and using lower-cost modular construction) has a 30% larger budget for exactly half the number of gates, with many of the same other amenities (entire new baggage claim, parking garage, etc). Of course, with the new DFW terminal serving AA's hub, I assume there are costly demands for wide bodies and international flights that will not be as burdensome to STL.
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I completely realize there would not be a "new" hub, my comment was more about maybe one moving from elsewhere. Sure, as I said it is a pipe dream. Example, all the problems facing United in Newark. Of course, them moving here would not make sense with a hub in Chicago, Denver and Houston. But it was the issues in Newark that make me think of what could be here.
Usairways/AA had a great hub airport in PIT but they pulled out after the merger. But didn't need it any more with their east hubs.
Cleveland lost Continental/United hub with the merger. Another nice hub no longer needed.
Cincinnati lost Delta hub because of "restructuring network" in early 2000's. They were over-extended on hubs. They were losing money.
Memphis lost Delta hub due to "high fuel prices, diminished passenger numbers, and economic challenges." Around 2012.
Just to name a few biggies.
The airlines had to trim overall operational costs.
If you look at those hub losses above... STL had rebounded the best with overall added service and passenger growth. It also had a huge Southwest operation when TWA was here and Southwest capitalized on the growth immediately after AA cut back. With a metro of nearly 3 million, the O&D traffic needed service still.
Cleveland lost Continental/United hub with the merger. Another nice hub no longer needed.
Cincinnati lost Delta hub because of "restructuring network" in early 2000's. They were over-extended on hubs. They were losing money.
Memphis lost Delta hub due to "high fuel prices, diminished passenger numbers, and economic challenges." Around 2012.
Just to name a few biggies.
The airlines had to trim overall operational costs.
If you look at those hub losses above... STL had rebounded the best with overall added service and passenger growth. It also had a huge Southwest operation when TWA was here and Southwest capitalized on the growth immediately after AA cut back. With a metro of nearly 3 million, the O&D traffic needed service still.
The only hubs I can see happening anytime soon are Delta opening one in Texas and United in Florida. And even then I would think it would be more of a “focus city”.
That said I wouldn’t be surprised if Allegiant opens a base at Mid America. But that wouldn’t be a “hub” in the traditional sense.
That said I wouldn’t be surprised if Allegiant opens a base at Mid America. But that wouldn’t be a “hub” in the traditional sense.
I have been saying the same thing! I hope our govt and city put up some sort of incentive package to land a hub or at a minimum, a move from one spot to STL.STLCityMike wrote: ↑May 24, 2025I feel like if there were going to be any hub movement (not actually expecting this) it is a perfect time to talk to St. Louis. We have runway capacity, a great central location without all the snow that is up north (Chicago, Detroit, Minneapolis) and a new terminal going in. One can dream
Hmm, would our new single, linear concourse be compatible with a major hub operation without some form of mass people mover? You'd have to punch out either end to add gates and the walk to either end would be onerous, even without bags and kids in tow.
I think our goal should be a crewed Southwest base with 150+ nonstop dailies.
I think our goal should be a crewed Southwest base with 150+ nonstop dailies.
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We also need to better connect our existing airport hotels or find a way to build some around the T2 metrolink stop
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I would love this as well! I have a list in my head of cities they need to serve here:pdm_ad wrote: ↑May 27, 2025Hmm, would our new single, linear concourse be compatible with a major hub operation without some form of mass people mover? You'd have to punch out either end to add gates and the walk to either end would be onerous, even without bags and kids in tow.
I think our goal should be a crewed Southwest base with 150+ nonstop dailies.
Louisville
Cincy
Memphis
Grand Rapids
Birmingham
Albuquerque
Indy
maybe seasonal to Palm Springs. I know a lot of guys have retired there. When I went last year there were several who were on my same flights (through Denver, which had terrible delays due to severe storms).
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I’d add Knoxville and the Smoky Mountains National Park there.STLCityMike wrote:I would love this as well! I have a list in my head of cities they need to serve here:pdm_ad wrote: ↑May 27, 2025Hmm, would our new single, linear concourse be compatible with a major hub operation without some form of mass people mover? You'd have to punch out either end to add gates and the walk to either end would be onerous, even without bags and kids in tow.
I think our goal should be a crewed Southwest base with 150+ nonstop dailies.
Louisville
Cincy
Memphis
Grand Rapids
Birmingham
Albuquerque
Indy
maybe seasonal to Palm Springs. I know a lot of guys have retired there. When I went last year there were several who were on my same flights (through Denver, which had terrible delays due to severe storms).
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I see Salt Lake new linear terminals as the model. By HOK I believe. They are a major Delta hub. They use only moving sidewalks in the two long linear terminals.pdm_ad wrote:Hmm, would our new single, linear concourse be compatible with a major hub operation without some form of mass people mover? You'd have to punch out either end to add gates and the walk to either end would be onerous, even without bags and kids in tow.
I think our goal should be a crewed Southwest base with 150+ nonstop dailies.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I would wonder if that would impact Mid America, which has Allegiant going there now. I thought I had read it was lower performing. I also don't think Knoxville has Southwest service right now. Those I listed have the airline currently and route traffic elsewhere (Nashville, Midway). I think we would work for their transfers. I would also, if we could really be a strong hub for them, to consider Hawaii. I thought the max could make it?gary kreie wrote: ↑May 28, 2025I’d add Knoxville and the Smoky Mountains National Park there.STLCityMike wrote:I would love this as well! I have a list in my head of cities they need to serve here:pdm_ad wrote: ↑May 27, 2025Hmm, would our new single, linear concourse be compatible with a major hub operation without some form of mass people mover? You'd have to punch out either end to add gates and the walk to either end would be onerous, even without bags and kids in tow.
I think our goal should be a crewed Southwest base with 150+ nonstop dailies.
Louisville
Cincy
Memphis
Grand Rapids
Birmingham
Albuquerque
Indy
maybe seasonal to Palm Springs. I know a lot of guys have retired there. When I went last year there were several who were on my same flights (through Denver, which had terrible delays due to severe storms).
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The max cannot make STL-Hawaii. I think PHX is the furthest it can go. The MAX7 had more range but still not enough, and who know when it will get approved anywaySTLCityMike wrote: ↑May 28, 2025I would wonder if that would impact Mid America, which has Allegiant going there now. I thought I had read it was lower performing. I also don't think Knoxville has Southwest service right now. Those I listed have the airline currently and route traffic elsewhere (Nashville, Midway). I think we would work for their transfers. I would also, if we could really be a strong hub for them, to consider Hawaii. I thought the max could make it?gary kreie wrote: ↑May 28, 2025I’d add Knoxville and the Smoky Mountains National Park there.STLCityMike wrote: I would love this as well! I have a list in my head of cities they need to serve here:
Louisville
Cincy
Memphis
Grand Rapids
Birmingham
Albuquerque
Indy
maybe seasonal to Palm Springs. I know a lot of guys have retired there. When I went last year there were several who were on my same flights (through Denver, which had terrible delays due to severe storms).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
JShank - has there ever been talk about Hawaiian opening a route to STL? Does the 321 NEO have the range to make it?
I haven’t heard much about it. It would have to be on widebody.pdm_ad wrote: ↑May 28, 2025JShank - has there ever been talk about Hawaiian opening a route to STL? Does the 321 NEO have the range to make it?
A321XLR might be able to but they don’t have any on order anyway.
I do think they could run it once or twice a week and do fine.
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Hey experts! On my way to work today, I saw an unusual jet parked west of Terminal A. It appeared to be a very light (white) frontal body, with the rear 1/3 or so medium grey. the angled line between the 2 appeared a red or orange. I tried to read the name on the front of the body as I drove, it looked like at started with a K. It was a full size jet (not a commuter jet) and I saw it there when I passed around 9 pm today, 5/28. Any ideas?? I can't find it online.
Here you go. They run flights for DHLSTLCityMike wrote: ↑May 29, 2025Hey experts! On my way to work today, I saw an unusual jet parked west of Terminal A. It appeared to be a very light (white) frontal body, with the rear 1/3 or so medium grey. the angled line between the 2 appeared a red or orange. I tried to read the name on the front of the body as I drove, it looked like at started with a K. It was a full size jet (not a commuter jet) and I saw it there when I passed around 9 pm today, 5/28. Any ideas?? I can't find it online.
