Are we sure the vacate isn’t temporary for staging? The elevator and crane systems would be substantial.
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Vacating with plans to activate building floors along Chestnut and do patio/outdoor bars and dining along the Gateway Mall could really be something. Would really need to be a master plan though, including figuring a way out of the Keiner garages and getting something new there. Without such full on activation, idk about the one block vacating though.
Come on, guys. You can't be all "Heal the Grid!" one day, and then "well, OK, I guess we could close that street" the next.
Closing Chestnut in the heart of Downtown is a terrible idea.
Closing Chestnut in the heart of Downtown is a terrible idea.
If there's pedestrian and bike access, the grid that we care about is effectively still there. Getting rid of the driving and parking lane for cars is nothing but a positive.
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This makes a lot of sense to me especially heat pumps because now you are just plugging into the electrical system to power it if not mistaken. So why not go all in on replacing an aged system with something different since you are literally changing the whole dynamic, needs and revenue source of not only the building but all the systems, especially the HVAC and electrical systems, from large multistory daytime single tenant footprints to a lot more small multi users/multi tenants per floor arrangement. Now we just need HVAC guy who can tell us how you actually pull it off.MattnSTL wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2025This is purely speculation, but since it's quite likely that the whole HVAC system needs to be replaced a this point in the lifecycle of the building, it may make sense to change to decentralized heat pumps to give more flexibility in individual unit control vs. what is likely building wide or per floor control now. I don't know what that set up would look like specifically for this building, but that could allow for removal of the big centralized chiller units on the roof. Or, if sticking with a centralized system, those could potentially be reworked in a different setup with replacement.
Or maybe the question is do the developers really have a choice on whether to replace the large chillers or not because it is something that literally has a few years left of use anyways?
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I think it would be cool, if its even possible, to light up the building
You know turn on few banks of lights on numerous floors.
It certainly would get attention and a conversation going.
I can hear it now "ITS ALIVE!!"
You know turn on few banks of lights on numerous floors.
It certainly would get attention and a conversation going.
I can hear it now "ITS ALIVE!!"
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Firms associated with the project that I’ve been able to piece together
David Mason and Associates (were surveying Chestnut)
Lochmueller Group (traffic engineers)
Commercial Retail Developers (They did the exploratory demo work) also they list 909 Chestnut as their address.
David Mason and Associates (were surveying Chestnut)
Lochmueller Group (traffic engineers)
Commercial Retail Developers (They did the exploratory demo work) also they list 909 Chestnut as their address.
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Framer may have me in mind with that comment. I used to be in favor of "healing the grid." But then I thought about my time in Germany, spent three months in the UK, and married a Vietnamese woman and started spending a ton of time in Asia. I got a better and fuller feel for how other ways of moving people and organizing cities might feel. (And I liked them. Some quite a lot.)dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Feb 13, 2025For the record I thought the entire heal the grid thing was stupidframer wrote: ↑Feb 13, 2025Come on, guys. You can't be all "Heal the Grid!" one day, and then "well, OK, I guess we could close that street" the next.
Closing Chestnut in the heart of Downtown is a terrible idea.
So yes, I can be all "Heal the Grid!" one day and "vacating that street is probably a good idea" the next. I can learn. What we need isn't a grid for cars. We don't need to heal that. Kill it dead. It was a dumb idea in the first place. I was wrong. The world worked before grids and it will work after. Pedestrians don't navigate like that. Create pedestrian access. Get rid of free parking. Hell, at this point I'm completely in favor of making cars pay to use streets. Europe is a better place for a pedestrian and . . . . it's a better place for a driver. That's the funniest thing; getting rid of cars makes the roads better for not just people that can't drive, but also people that really need to drive. It's true. It's not just certain orange YouTube channels.
Kill the grid. Kill it dead with the purifying fire of modal filters. Kill stop signs and signalized intersections with traffic circles and medians that can't be crossed by cars. Put signals at crosswalks, and make them automatic and fast. Give streets diets. Remove on street parking. Get ride of lanes. Ban bi-directional left turn lanes. Widen sidewalks. Add bushes and trees. Make streets more crooked and irregular. Make them bumpier. Make. Drivers. . . . . slow down. Teach them (teach us) a better way.
You get called a Marxist/Communist these days with an opinion like that. Be careful.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Feb 13, 2025Framer may have me in mind with that comment. I used to be in favor of "healing the grid." But then I thought about my time in Germany, spent three months in the UK, and married a Vietnamese woman and started spending a ton of time in Asia. I got a better and fuller feel for how other ways of moving people and organizing cities might feel. (And I liked them. Some quite a lot.)dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Feb 13, 2025For the record I thought the entire heal the grid thing was stupidframer wrote: ↑Feb 13, 2025Come on, guys. You can't be all "Heal the Grid!" one day, and then "well, OK, I guess we could close that street" the next.
Closing Chestnut in the heart of Downtown is a terrible idea.
So yes, I can be all "Heal the Grid!" one day and "vacating that street is probably a good idea" the next. I can learn. What we need isn't a grid for cars. We don't need to heal that. Kill it dead. It was a dumb idea in the first place. I was wrong. The world worked before grids and it will work after. Pedestrians don't navigate like that. Create pedestrian access. Get rid of free parking. Hell, at this point I'm completely in favor of making cars pay to use streets. Europe is a better place for a pedestrian and . . . . it's a better place for a driver. That's the funniest thing; getting rid of cars makes the roads better for not just people that can't drive, but also people that really need to drive. It's true. It's not just certain orange YouTube channels.
Kill the grid. Kill it dead with the purifying fire of modal filters. Kill stop signs and signalized intersections with traffic circles and medians that can't be crossed by cars. Put signals at crosswalks, and make them automatic and fast. Give streets diets. Remove on street parking. Get ride of lanes. Ban bi-directional left turn lanes. Widen sidewalks. Add bushes and trees. Make streets more crooked and irregular. Make them bumpier. Make. Drivers. . . . . slow down. Teach them (teach us) a better way.
Glad to see the Overton Window shifting on pedestrianization. Used to be you'd hear how it killed the 14th St retail area, and it was a non-starter. Of course the real reason was redlining, racism, highway building, leaded-gas-fueled crime wave, etc. All the commercial districts suffered, open to cars or not. Or you'd hear how we need good transit before reducing space for cars.
Places like this in Stockholm are wonderful
Keep in mind pedestrianizing a street isn't contingent upon vacating it. Vacation means transferring public space to private hands. We saw how expansive it was to get back Lucas from a parking lot on the Landing for the public. I hope this proposed vacation comes with lots of strings attached.
The equivalent of the Gateway Mall in Helsinki. There is car traffic permuted on the Market and Chestnut analogs, but very calmed.
Keep in mind most of the interruptions of the grid weren't in service of the goal of reducing VMT and encouraging mode shift to walking, biking, and transit. They were to build highways, reduce friction for arterials, and to create super blocks for stadiums, parking, convention center, semi-oriented warehouses, NGA, Doisy, etc.
The ones in neighborhoods were to shift traffic from one block to another. The ones in Botanical Heights certainly didn't care about mode shift or efficient land use.
Places like this in Stockholm are wonderful
Keep in mind pedestrianizing a street isn't contingent upon vacating it. Vacation means transferring public space to private hands. We saw how expansive it was to get back Lucas from a parking lot on the Landing for the public. I hope this proposed vacation comes with lots of strings attached.
The equivalent of the Gateway Mall in Helsinki. There is car traffic permuted on the Market and Chestnut analogs, but very calmed.
Keep in mind most of the interruptions of the grid weren't in service of the goal of reducing VMT and encouraging mode shift to walking, biking, and transit. They were to build highways, reduce friction for arterials, and to create super blocks for stadiums, parking, convention center, semi-oriented warehouses, NGA, Doisy, etc.
The ones in neighborhoods were to shift traffic from one block to another. The ones in Botanical Heights certainly didn't care about mode shift or efficient land use.
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Getting off topic, but those artificial cul-de-sacs are all over the city and I would be fine with them if they just had a little curb cut on either side for bikes to effectively pass through without having to stop and pick up the bike over the curb
What works in Europe and other densely populated city centers will not work in Downtown St. Louis.
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That seems an effect of the way we've demolished our downtown than an argument against rebuilding it betterRick Prieto wrote: ↑Feb 13, 2025population density, people not trying so hard to move as far as way from downtown.
Meanwhile, we could go for the record of the World's Largest Rooftop Infinity Pool:
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^Or they put multiple infinity pools on all those little ledges lol.
As to the street connection argument, an actual “grid” is overrated - as in lower manhattan type streets versus upper manhattan “grid” streets. Winding streets and nooks and plaza and street dining make a city feel more unique, create differentiation between blocks - that’s one of the elements that make many European and northeast cities feel so fun to explore. As long as there is that pedestrian still for use, recreation and exploration, it can work. It could actually break up monotony and really detract different purposes block by block of a city.
I think “heal the grid” is less about actually restoring the “square grid”, but just healing connection. So for instance, Debaliviere to Euclid has cut off too much pedestrian access (could care less about cars, that’s fine); streets between Soulard and Benton Park need more connection someway somehow; market compton grand i-64 doesn’t work for access to a transit stop, to any neighborhoods abutting the area and any type of traffic connectivity; there should be more than one easy, inviting access to our national park from downtown; etc etc
In this case, making Chestnut more friendly to other uses along the gateway mall could be great. I’ve always imagined outdoor dining and drinking and entertainment along the gateway mall as a great activation plan. I would love to see this thought of as a bigger vision though for the middle of downtown, and not just ceding a block for one developer. Go all in on the vision
So second @symphonicpoet
As to the street connection argument, an actual “grid” is overrated - as in lower manhattan type streets versus upper manhattan “grid” streets. Winding streets and nooks and plaza and street dining make a city feel more unique, create differentiation between blocks - that’s one of the elements that make many European and northeast cities feel so fun to explore. As long as there is that pedestrian still for use, recreation and exploration, it can work. It could actually break up monotony and really detract different purposes block by block of a city.
I think “heal the grid” is less about actually restoring the “square grid”, but just healing connection. So for instance, Debaliviere to Euclid has cut off too much pedestrian access (could care less about cars, that’s fine); streets between Soulard and Benton Park need more connection someway somehow; market compton grand i-64 doesn’t work for access to a transit stop, to any neighborhoods abutting the area and any type of traffic connectivity; there should be more than one easy, inviting access to our national park from downtown; etc etc
In this case, making Chestnut more friendly to other uses along the gateway mall could be great. I’ve always imagined outdoor dining and drinking and entertainment along the gateway mall as a great activation plan. I would love to see this thought of as a bigger vision though for the middle of downtown, and not just ceding a block for one developer. Go all in on the vision
So second @symphonicpoet
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I like that Rasheen Aldridge’s post shows us a little bit of what an apartment floor could be like. That’s my biggest question is how the apartments will be laid out since the floor plates are so large.
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^quincunx,
Oh, I want strings. I'm willing to consider letting them have the street, but only if they permit pedestrian and bicycle access, so no fencing it off. And I'd want to see some pedestrian activation. Lots of strings are needed.
^delmar2debaiviere2downtown,
I feel like the "heal the grid" movement was really a call for urbanism, and in the US classic urbanism was mostly pretty gridded. The city of my youth was a place with fewer street closures and more people, and that seemed like the way to go. But the more I learn, the more I realize the important thing wasn't the grid, per se, but rather the pedestrian activation provided by older businesses that predated modern zoning and parking requirements. And that the narrower and stranger lanes (remember the bi-directional express lanes on Gravois anyone?) with more stuff you needed to avoid led to lower speeds and more cautious drivers. And when you experience places that don't have grids, and never did, you realize that "heal the grid" was maybe not the right moniker. Heal the city. Cut back on cars. Cut back on parking. Get people out of their cars. That's what really matters. Not the grid. And this? This might actually help with that if we do it right. Maybe. With the right strings.
Oh, I want strings. I'm willing to consider letting them have the street, but only if they permit pedestrian and bicycle access, so no fencing it off. And I'd want to see some pedestrian activation. Lots of strings are needed.
^delmar2debaiviere2downtown,
I feel like the "heal the grid" movement was really a call for urbanism, and in the US classic urbanism was mostly pretty gridded. The city of my youth was a place with fewer street closures and more people, and that seemed like the way to go. But the more I learn, the more I realize the important thing wasn't the grid, per se, but rather the pedestrian activation provided by older businesses that predated modern zoning and parking requirements. And that the narrower and stranger lanes (remember the bi-directional express lanes on Gravois anyone?) with more stuff you needed to avoid led to lower speeds and more cautious drivers. And when you experience places that don't have grids, and never did, you realize that "heal the grid" was maybe not the right moniker. Heal the city. Cut back on cars. Cut back on parking. Get people out of their cars. That's what really matters. Not the grid. And this? This might actually help with that if we do it right. Maybe. With the right strings.
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Yes agreed to all this. Heal the connections and prioritize street activity.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Feb 14, 2025^quincunx,
Oh, I want strings. I'm willing to consider letting them have the street, but only if they permit pedestrian and bicycle access, so no fencing it off. And I'd want to see some pedestrian activation. Lots of strings are needed.
^delmar2debaiviere2downtown,
I feel like the "heal the grid" movement was really a call for urbanism, and in the US classic urbanism was mostly pretty gridded. The city of my youth was a place with fewer street closures and more people, and that seemed like the way to go. But the more I learn, the more I realize the important thing wasn't the grid, per se, but rather the pedestrian activation provided by older businesses that predated modern zoning and parking requirements. And that the narrower and stranger lanes (remember the bi-directional express lanes on Gravois anyone?) with more stuff you needed to avoid led to lower speeds and more cautious drivers. And when you experience places that don't have grids, and never did, you realize that "heal the grid" was maybe not the right moniker. Heal the city. Cut back on cars. Cut back on parking. Get people out of their cars. That's what really matters. Not the grid. And this? This might actually help with that if we do it right. Maybe. With the right strings.
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I think I'm just admitting that I previously believed reconnection meant removing street closures like Schoemel Pots and Slay Balls. I'm now of the opinion that the important connections are pedestrian and that automotive restrictions can be entirely appropriate. Just, learning. The spirit of "heal the grid" was (and is) fine. But I'm learning more nuance to how I think about it, and the phrase "heal the grid" feels a little misleading now, since the street grid isn't really the important thing, and the local automotive connections aren't even necessarily helpful. They require more careful thought. I think we actually agree. If I understand your position correctly.quincunx wrote: ↑Feb 14, 2025Heal the grid isn't about right angles. It's about reconnection.