That's the 8th Ward. Looks like a bunch of us therefore had the 8th and 14th mixed up. DTW is the general subject area for Denis's meeting...correct?
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Courthouse to courthouse to was the focus but we were not restricted to that. I talked about mostly about parks around park pacific and the need to turn those over to development
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Honestly, the thought to turn those blocks over to development never occured to me. Could maybe stomach that if it was just half of eternal flame and kaufman on the halfs furthest from Soldiers memorial--so the memorial had room to breathe and you could still easily have flow to the park in front of central library which i would be fully opposed to turning over to reg development.
Hit upon an idea i liked when thinking about what to say about these spaces before the panel(before knowing that wasn't the scope): I like the idea of having gardens here. Flower gardens would be cool, but food bearing fruit and veg garderns would be even better. The food could go to shelters in the area, and they could commemorate the victory gardens of the World Wars, in addition to giving shape and function to those blocks. Could see this maybe even working best on half blocks.
That said, I would want any way the blocks are developed on the west end to leave most of the beautiful mature trees intact.
Hit upon an idea i liked when thinking about what to say about these spaces before the panel(before knowing that wasn't the scope): I like the idea of having gardens here. Flower gardens would be cool, but food bearing fruit and veg garderns would be even better. The food could go to shelters in the area, and they could commemorate the victory gardens of the World Wars, in addition to giving shape and function to those blocks. Could see this maybe even working best on half blocks.
That said, I would want any way the blocks are developed on the west end to leave most of the beautiful mature trees intact.
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just these 2 parks, Kaufman Park the most since it faces Tucker, and it can be done with no parking because it can connect to the Park Pacific Garage.
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I keep thinking we could try and start some events that are or could be inspired by unique events in St. Louis... kind of like how we have the balloon glow, paintlouis, ice festival... what is an event that we could help fund/cultivate into an event like those that stands the test of time?
Actually DB the National German Beer festival was one that I think was coming, but delayed by Covid - that's a great example.
- Like could the Tour De St. Louis Bike races have a race around the gateway mall and could the turn around be at the arch and City Park... would make for some great photos.
- Could we recreate the film festival on Art Hill (rent their blow up screen) and show movies or the Taylor Swift concert in Keiner Plaza or projected onto the parking garages maybe?
- I've seen a few cities do adult soap box derbies that looked pretty successful.
- Toasted Ravioli Festival? haha
Actually DB the National German Beer festival was one that I think was coming, but delayed by Covid - that's a great example.
- Like could the Tour De St. Louis Bike races have a race around the gateway mall and could the turn around be at the arch and City Park... would make for some great photos.
- Could we recreate the film festival on Art Hill (rent their blow up screen) and show movies or the Taylor Swift concert in Keiner Plaza or projected onto the parking garages maybe?
- I've seen a few cities do adult soap box derbies that looked pretty successful.
- Toasted Ravioli Festival? haha
What was the reception/reaction to that? And, out of curiosity, why not also the park west of Soldier's Memorial? I saw you mentioned only two of the three. I think if it was only two, I'd rather have the east and west ones, just because of the library, but wouldn't lose any sleep over getting rid of all three.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jan 11, 2024Courthouse to courthouse to was the focus but we were not restricted to that. I talked about mostly about parks around park pacific and the need to turn those over to development
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Yeah my preference would be keep the one north of soldiers and develop the one west (Eternal Flame). It would have to be an outstanding proposal though as it would have to go to the voters. The one to the North, I liked the idea of the skate loop but there are any number of ideas that could work there.EssTeeEll wrote: ↑Jan 11, 2024What was the reception/reaction to that? And, out of curiosity, why not also the park west of Soldier's Memorial? I saw you mentioned only two of the three. I think if it was only two, I'd rather have the east and west ones, just because of the library, but wouldn't lose any sleep over getting rid of all three.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jan 11, 2024Courthouse to courthouse to was the focus but we were not restricted to that. I talked about mostly about parks around park pacific and the need to turn those over to development
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Some recommendations (idk if a final doc will be public or not) but make 7th street a focus that connects Wash Ave/MX to Gateway Mall and BPV, fill first floor spaces along that route and mall with pop ups, more events in the mall, coffee shop at Serra.
^ That'd be great to have along the way there. Forgive my ignorance, but why specifically was 7th Street chosen out of all the streets for the improvements? Is it a direct result of BPV being on it? Or is there more significance?
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its a straight shot into BPV from Dome/convention/mxEssTeeEll wrote: ↑Jan 18, 2024^ That'd be great to have along the way there. Forgive my ignorance, but why specifically was 7th Street chosen out of all the streets for the improvements? Is it a direct result of BPV being on it? Or is there more significance?
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Visitors can see the huge World Series trophy replica at BPV from the convention center front looking down 7th. It makes sense as a North primary north-south connector.
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would make more sense if the demoed a couple garages and built on those BPV lots. As is it's a car storage corridor.
Could someone clarify a ownership question for me. St. Louis gateway mall is part national park or monument, or mostly city park? were is the dividing line?. It matters on how you go forward. I think the big part of Arch grounds rehab & lid is that is a national park and therefore very different scenario and or actions that can be taken. Which is fine considering how much space the mall encompasses when you look at it.
Seems like redefining the west end of mall as you build out West Downtown residential makes a lot of sense. Especially with dblnsouthcity comments above that your commercial office market should consolidate its core as you build out west downtown residential. Great time to also rethink Gateway Mall on the west end as well.
I really think about how you move forward for the scale, size of the city/region in regards to changing patterns & reducing office workforce vs say a comparison. To move forward one piece is the gateway mall and another big piece discussed on other threads is how many downtown interchanges are really needed? whether it be the mess near Cupples warehouse and or the keeping the current Market/I64 mess...
Seems like redefining the west end of mall as you build out West Downtown residential makes a lot of sense. Especially with dblnsouthcity comments above that your commercial office market should consolidate its core as you build out west downtown residential. Great time to also rethink Gateway Mall on the west end as well.
I really think about how you move forward for the scale, size of the city/region in regards to changing patterns & reducing office workforce vs say a comparison. To move forward one piece is the gateway mall and another big piece discussed on other threads is how many downtown interchanges are really needed? whether it be the mess near Cupples warehouse and or the keeping the current Market/I64 mess...
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Red- National Park (including Old Courthouse)dredger wrote: ↑Dec 09, 2024Could someone clarify a ownership question for me. St. Louis gateway mall is part national park or monument, or mostly city park? were is the dividing line?. It matters on how you go forward. I think the big part of Arch grounds rehab & lid is that is a national park and therefore very different scenario and or actions that can be taken. Which is fine considering how much space the mall encompasses when you look at it.
Seems like redefining the west end of mall as you build out West Downtown residential makes a lot of sense. Especially with dblnsouthcity comments above that your commercial office market should consolidate its core as you build out west downtown residential. Great time to also rethink Gateway Mall on the west end as well.
I really think about how you move forward for the scale, size of the city/region in regards to changing patterns & reducing office workforce vs say a comparison. To move forward one piece is the gateway mall and another big piece discussed on other threads is how many downtown interchanges are really needed? whether it be the mess near Cupples warehouse and or the keeping the current Market/I64 mess...
Green- City Owned Kiener Plaza but Great Rivers Greenway maintained
Purple- City Owned CityGarden but Gateway Foundation maintained (not to be confused with Gateway Arch Park Foundation, which is a non-profit conservancy and official philanthropic partner of the Gateway arch national park )
Yellow- City owned and city maintained and the same for the rest of the mall from Tucker to CityPark Stadium
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So, it’s the city dropping the ball with Gateway Mall mostly because Old Courthouse is being renovated, Keiner at least host events and is clean, and City Garden is in good shape. With the brick line greenway coming through Gateway Mall, it will instantly all look much better with that. We need changes to Serra, and all the parks between Civil Courts Building and CityPark to make them more attractive to visitors.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 09, 2024Red- National Park (including Old Courthouse)dredger wrote: ↑Dec 09, 2024Could someone clarify a ownership question for me. St. Louis gateway mall is part national park or monument, or mostly city park? were is the dividing line?. It matters on how you go forward. I think the big part of Arch grounds rehab & lid is that is a national park and therefore very different scenario and or actions that can be taken. Which is fine considering how much space the mall encompasses when you look at it.
Seems like redefining the west end of mall as you build out West Downtown residential makes a lot of sense. Especially with dblnsouthcity comments above that your commercial office market should consolidate its core as you build out west downtown residential. Great time to also rethink Gateway Mall on the west end as well.
I really think about how you move forward for the scale, size of the city/region in regards to changing patterns & reducing office workforce vs say a comparison. To move forward one piece is the gateway mall and another big piece discussed on other threads is how many downtown interchanges are really needed? whether it be the mess near Cupples warehouse and or the keeping the current Market/I64 mess...
Green- City Owned Kiener Plaza but Great Rivers Greenway maintained
Purple- City Owned CityGarden but Gateway Foundation maintained (not to be confused with Gateway Arch Park Foundation, which is a non-profit conservancy and official philanthropic partner of the Gateway arch national park )
Yellow- City owned and city maintained and the same for the rest of the mall from Tucker to CityPark Stadium
If you had amenities all the way from CityPark to the Arch with the Brickline Greenway running adjacent, I see no reason that Gateway Mall would not be one of the most attractive urban corridors in the country. The real estate development would follow those improvements and only make it better.
So maybe it would be best to turn the rest of the mall to a third party nonprofit too and be involved in making it more amenity rich?
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Pre covid the neighborhood association worked with HOK on a plan for the west of Tucker portions of the gateway mall, I think rendering are probably on here somewhere but covid happened, HOK got busy with citypark and the neighborhood association became a shell of itself
I always heard or thought that some or all of Kiener Plaza was owned by a family, not the city. Which makes me think it could, in theory, be the easiest to develop. While I'm all for developing a lot of Gateway Mall (we can argue about this another time), the city charter states that you cannot develop a park owned by the city so I'm not even sure how anything west of Tucker could be developed, even though that seems like a no-brainer to me.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 09, 2024Red- National Park (including Old Courthouse)dredger wrote: ↑Dec 09, 2024Could someone clarify a ownership question for me. St. Louis gateway mall is part national park or monument, or mostly city park? were is the dividing line?. It matters on how you go forward. I think the big part of Arch grounds rehab & lid is that is a national park and therefore very different scenario and or actions that can be taken. Which is fine considering how much space the mall encompasses when you look at it.
Seems like redefining the west end of mall as you build out West Downtown residential makes a lot of sense. Especially with dblnsouthcity comments above that your commercial office market should consolidate its core as you build out west downtown residential. Great time to also rethink Gateway Mall on the west end as well.
I really think about how you move forward for the scale, size of the city/region in regards to changing patterns & reducing office workforce vs say a comparison. To move forward one piece is the gateway mall and another big piece discussed on other threads is how many downtown interchanges are really needed? whether it be the mess near Cupples warehouse and or the keeping the current Market/I64 mess...
Green- City Owned Kiener Plaza but Great Rivers Greenway maintained
Purple- City Owned CityGarden but Gateway Foundation maintained (not to be confused with Gateway Arch Park Foundation, which is a non-profit conservancy and official philanthropic partner of the Gateway arch national park )
Yellow- City owned and city maintained and the same for the rest of the mall from Tucker to CityPark Stadium
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I would not suggest “developing” the parks west of Tucker (I would be fine with Eternal Flame and Kauffman Park developments if appropriate and interact on street level with the Gateway Mall). The Gateway Mall can be a one of a kind asset to the region. I believe that the other posters and I are talking about adding park amenities to the existing parks, making them more useful and attractive to people. No different than adding amenities to Forest Park/Tower Grove/Fairground etc and not just green space. Recreational activities, stage, cafe patio, swings, seating, playgrounds, art, etc.MRNHS wrote: ↑Dec 10, 2024I always heard or thought that some or all of Kiener Plaza was owned by a family, not the city. Which makes me think it could, in theory, be the easiest to develop. While I'm all for developing a lot of Gateway Mall (we can argue about this another time), the city charter states that you cannot develop a park owned by the city so I'm not even sure how anything west of Tucker could be developed, even though that seems like a no-brainer to me.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 09, 2024Red- National Park (including Old Courthouse)dredger wrote: ↑Dec 09, 2024Could someone clarify a ownership question for me. St. Louis gateway mall is part national park or monument, or mostly city park? were is the dividing line?. It matters on how you go forward. I think the big part of Arch grounds rehab & lid is that is a national park and therefore very different scenario and or actions that can be taken. Which is fine considering how much space the mall encompasses when you look at it.
Seems like redefining the west end of mall as you build out West Downtown residential makes a lot of sense. Especially with dblnsouthcity comments above that your commercial office market should consolidate its core as you build out west downtown residential. Great time to also rethink Gateway Mall on the west end as well.
I really think about how you move forward for the scale, size of the city/region in regards to changing patterns & reducing office workforce vs say a comparison. To move forward one piece is the gateway mall and another big piece discussed on other threads is how many downtown interchanges are really needed? whether it be the mess near Cupples warehouse and or the keeping the current Market/I64 mess...
Green- City Owned Kiener Plaza but Great Rivers Greenway maintained
Purple- City Owned CityGarden but Gateway Foundation maintained (not to be confused with Gateway Arch Park Foundation, which is a non-profit conservancy and official philanthropic partner of the Gateway arch national park )
Yellow- City owned and city maintained and the same for the rest of the mall from Tucker to CityPark Stadium
^ I don't really think it is about turning over part of the mall to private interests and redeveloping Gateway Mall with structures. City across the board has plenty of space and owns plenty of other property to redevelop whether it be downtown and or any other neighborhood so to me you only delay the development of other areas.
To me it is a really a vision for use of this public space going forward. To me the city being the landlord and keeper of Gateway Mall west of Tucker has free reign to use this space differently - Heck, why not public soccer fields on west end?. To me that is what a growing residential presence, especially if West downtown residential continues, desires not a vision based on a century ago when Gateway Mall was established but the future of downtown (a lot more residences, entertainment, convention goers/tourists and less office workers). To me the first action item on the list is move Twain sculpture & expand citygarden, give it a refresh, maybe sounds cheesy but add community garden or an off shot inconjunction with Missouri Botanical garden - or an ever and literally growing active space of what is green with manmade structures around it .
To me it is a really a vision for use of this public space going forward. To me the city being the landlord and keeper of Gateway Mall west of Tucker has free reign to use this space differently - Heck, why not public soccer fields on west end?. To me that is what a growing residential presence, especially if West downtown residential continues, desires not a vision based on a century ago when Gateway Mall was established but the future of downtown (a lot more residences, entertainment, convention goers/tourists and less office workers). To me the first action item on the list is move Twain sculpture & expand citygarden, give it a refresh, maybe sounds cheesy but add community garden or an off shot inconjunction with Missouri Botanical garden - or an ever and literally growing active space of what is green with manmade structures around it .
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Agree about some of your points like moving Twain/building more to that space. I would vote against soccer field. Not sure where that would fit in the gateway mall and there are already THREE soccer fields taking up a lot of space around there. I know they are CITY practice fields but still that’s a lot of acreage. For all the flack that the Cardinals get for not building out BPV yet, could you imagine if they built three practice fields downtown and made that much space unavailable to the public? I understand it was part of the deal to get them downtown and we can just give them a pass, but that particular area of downtown is soccer field maxed out. I would be okay with some sort of miniature half field with a goal or something though, and things like batting cages, half basketball court, 2 tennis/convertible pickleball courts mixed in some of these gateway mall spaces to make downtown more livable and vibrant.dredger wrote: ↑Dec 10, 2024^ I don't really think it is about turning over part of the mall to private interests and redeveloping Gateway Mall with structures. City across the board has plenty of space and owns plenty of other property to redevelop whether it be downtown and or any other neighborhood so to me you only delay the development of other areas.
To me it is a really a vision for use of this public space going forward. To me the city being the landlord and keeper of Gateway Mall west of Tucker has free reign to use this space differently - Heck, why not public soccer fields on west end?. To me that is what a growing residential presence, especially if West downtown residential continues, desires not a vision based on a century ago when Gateway Mall was established but the future of downtown (a lot more residences, entertainment, convention goers/tourists and less office workers). To me the first action item on the list is move Twain sculpture & expand citygarden, give it a refresh, maybe sounds cheesy but add community garden or an off shot inconjunction with Missouri Botanical garden - or an ever and literally growing active space of what is green with manmade structures around it .
Look at how much Love Bank Park did with such little space. Imagine what that kind of design team could do with the space of the Gateway Mall. You can be very creative in making space people want to be in
Right now, the city owned and maintained parts struggle with keeping camping out and doing anything more than cutting the grass. These could be wonderful spaces though
It starts with programming and the city is starting to do that with some stuff during the summer in Keiner. I still think we can do “markets along market” in the gateway mall, expand festivals, etc to at least get some utility in the current state
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Soccer and baseball fields are pretty large for the Gateway Mall IMO. Would rather see smaller scale sporting infrastructure, lit until 10pm, that would showcase visible activity to anybody going past.
- Sand volleyball
- Basketball
- Pickleball
- Bike Polo/roller hockey
- Ping Pong tables
- Shaded Chess Tables
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I would love to see sand volleyball courts that could be used for leagues. We play downtown already at Wav Taco, if they allow leagues, I think it could work. Concessions would ne nice (like at the softball fields in Forest Park.
I also think nice playgrounds would help.
They used to air a Christmas Story? Are they still doing that?
I also think nice playgrounds would help.
They used to air a Christmas Story? Are they still doing that?
Thanks above
Not sure what would work best as I obviously throw the soccer field bit out there without thinking through it but certainly think the opportunity is there. Space is there, access is there, hopefully more residents in near future and brickline will only make things better.,
Not sure what would work best as I obviously throw the soccer field bit out there without thinking through it but certainly think the opportunity is there. Space is there, access is there, hopefully more residents in near future and brickline will only make things better.,