urbanSTL

I can't stand St. Charles County and wouldn't live there if I was paid to do so.

So I can't believe I am defending them here but a couple of these posts were way too harsh. 

I worked out there for a decade and 99% of my co-workers lived in that county. White and black, by the way. Young and old. While I can't see into anybody's heart, and it's entirely possible some of them were hateful, I just can't believe all these white and black people were racist. Most of them in this century lived out there because they were born and raised out there and so it was just home. The small number that did move at one point from St. Louis County told me they moved because they could get more house for their money. 

stlokc wrote:I can't stand St. Charles County and wouldn't live there if I was paid to do so.

So I can't believe I am defending them here but a couple of these posts were way too harsh. 

I worked out there for a decade and 99% of my co-workers lived in that county. White and black, by the way. Young and old. While I can't see into anybody's heart, and it's entirely possible some of them were hateful, I just can't believe all these white and black people were racist. Most of them in this century lived out there because they were born and raised out there and so it was just home. The small number that did move at one point from St. Louis County told me they moved because they could get more house for their money. 

Thanks for adding some much needed perspective from outside the urbanism/city bubble. When we don’t properly understand all the reasons for present day migration West, we can’t properly work towards solutions to stop it.


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It’s two different things, I think everyone understands that most people stick around the place they were born at, that’s one and the other is much darker, how that place become their home town.  That convo starts with what happened in the US post WWII and how the suburbs started

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

Auggie wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

That’s a drastic oversimplification of the cause, but I agree it’s a factor.


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You'd be hard pressed to find someone moving to St. Charles without a systemically racist reason. And this applies for pretty much every sh*tty suburb in America.

This is a complete lack of understanding of why many people choose to live in St Charles.


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It's not. I'm just stating reality. In normal countries, people don't choose to live in places like St. Charles.

Auggie wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

Auggie wrote: You'd be hard pressed to find someone moving to St. Charles without a systemically racist reason. And this applies for pretty much every sh*tty suburb in America.

This is a complete lack of understanding of why many people choose to live in St Charles.


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It's not. I'm just stating reality. In normal countries, people don't choose to live in places like St. Charles.

You’re not stating reality. You are stating your reality.


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dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

It’s two different things, I think everyone understands that most people stick around the place they were born at, that’s one and the other is much darker, how that place become their home town.  That convo starts with what happened in the US post WWII and how the suburbs started

I definitely think we can agree on that. This metro area (and really the whole country but for some reason it seems more pronounced here) has some dark history. But I get nervous casting aspersions on present-day people for decisions their parents and grandparents made. The average person I knew working in St. Charles was not actively anti-city, they were ambivalent. A few of them admitted to me they would actually prefer to live in the city or at least St. Louis county but their whole lives were out there and that's a lot to overcome. 

My aunt back in the late 90s moved from St.Ann to Ofallon MO simply for a much bigger house but honestly the house in St.Ann had much more character & Tiemeyer park was right behind her backyard. I honestly don’t dislike St. Charles County not everyone wants to be in an urban environment. I used to live in St.Charles county when I was a kid you either love it or hate it. Downtown St.Louis needs corporate commitment more than ever


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stlokc wrote:

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

It’s two different things, I think everyone understands that most people stick around the place they were born at, that’s one and the other is much darker, how that place become their home town.  That convo starts with what happened in the US post WWII and how the suburbs started

I definitely think we can agree on that. This metro area (and really the whole country but for some reason it seems more pronounced here) has some dark history. But I get nervous casting aspersions on present-day people for decisions their parents and grandparents made. The average person I knew working in St. Charles was not actively anti-city, they were ambivalent. A few of them admitted to me they would actually prefer to live in the city or at least St. Louis county but their whole lives were out there and that's a lot to overcome. 

I agree with this perspective. There’s also a reality that it cost a lot more money to get the same level of housing and schooling in the city as you get in St Charles.

I had friends that recently moved from South City to O’Fallon MO. They greatly preferred living in South City but the reality is they got 50% more home for their growing family and they get to send their kids to a grade school in the 80% percentile of testing vs the 25% percentile.

Many of the reasons historically the schooling is so different in these areas is steeped in racism, but the present day decision they made is not racist.


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Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

It’s an oversimplified explanation of why someone would choose to live in St Charles today.

There are people who choose better schools for their kids, prefer a more car oriented set up, and want newer/larger housing stock plus more land. Much of the population moving West today isn’t even white.


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You've just proven my point. All the things you just cited are completely marred by systemic racism. Schools, car culture, and expensive commodity housing are all how it is because of racist polices put in place decades ago.

How do you look at the dramatic demographic swings that occurred in North County since 1980 and conclude chalking it up to racism is an “oversimplification”. It’s the primary motivating factor and it is obviously so.

stlokc wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

I can't stand St. Charles County and wouldn't live there if I was paid to do so.

So I can't believe I am defending them here but a couple of these posts were way too harsh. 

I worked out there for a decade and 99% of my co-workers lived in that county. White and black, by the way. Young and old. While I can't see into anybody's heart, and it's entirely possible some of them were hateful, I just can't believe all these white and black people were racist. Most of them in this century lived out there because they were born and raised out there and so it was just home. The small number that did move at one point from St. Louis County told me they moved because they could get more house for their money. 

Systemic racism is not obvious or blatant, that's why it's called systemic racism. They live out there because racist systems put them out there.

Auggie wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

It’s an oversimplified explanation of why someone would choose to live in St Charles today.

There are people who choose better schools for their kids, prefer a more car oriented set up, and want newer/larger housing stock plus more land. Much of the population moving West today isn’t even white.


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You've just proven my point. All the things you just cited are completely marred by systemic racism. Schools, car culture, and expensive commodity housing are all how it is because of racist polices put in place decades ago.

No one disagrees that racist policies were put in place decades ago that helped create the suburbs. Your original point was that you’d be hard pressed to find someone today who moves to St Charles who isn’t racist. That’s wrong for many of the reasons outlined above.


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Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

stlokc wrote:I can't stand St. Charles County and wouldn't live there if I was paid to do so.

So I can't believe I am defending them here but a couple of these posts were way too harsh. 

I worked out there for a decade and 99% of my co-workers lived in that county. White and black, by the way. Young and old. While I can't see into anybody's heart, and it's entirely possible some of them were hateful, I just can't believe all these white and black people were racist. Most of them in this century lived out there because they were born and raised out there and so it was just home. The small number that did move at one point from St. Louis County told me they moved because they could get more house for their money. 

Thanks for adding some much needed perspective from outside the urbanism/city bubble. When we don’t properly understand all the reasons for present day migration West, we can’t properly work towards solutions to stop it.


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The reason for present day migration are all baked in systemic racism. What do you not understand about that? Schools, housing, car culture are all how they are because racist people put racist policies in place to ensure that segregation did not end when it was made illegal.

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

stlokc wrote:

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

It’s two different things, I think everyone understands that most people stick around the place they were born at, that’s one and the other is much darker, how that place become their home town.  That convo starts with what happened in the US post WWII and how the suburbs started

I definitely think we can agree on that. This metro area (and really the whole country but for some reason it seems more pronounced here) has some dark history. But I get nervous casting aspersions on present-day people for decisions their parents and grandparents made. The average person I knew working in St. Charles was not actively anti-city, they were ambivalent. A few of them admitted to me they would actually prefer to live in the city or at least St. Louis county but their whole lives were out there and that's a lot to overcome. 

I agree with this perspective. There’s also a reality that it cost a lot more money to get the same level of housing and schooling in the city as you get in St Charles.

I had friends that recently moved from South City to O’Fallon MO. They greatly preferred living in South City but the reality is they got 50% more home for their growing family and they get to send their kids to a grade school in the 80% percentile of testing vs the 25% percentile.

Many of the reasons historically the schooling is so different in these areas is steeped in racism, but the present day decision they made is not racist.


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I have no kids in school so i get that its easy for me to say this but its kind of a self fulfilling prophecy isnt it?  Like we have real life examples that you can get quality education at SLPS schools when you control for economic factors.  See the magnet grade schools and high schools in the city that beat out every county school, the economic demo of those schools largely match the county ones. 

 To me it's more so on the type of life a student has at home than the district itself, and especially since we know that the district does have the ability to offer great education as i said above. You cant expect students that live in poverty, deal with gun violence trauma etc. and show up in school and do well on a test that will judge how good or bad their entire district is.   

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

Auggie wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

This is a complete lack of understanding of why many people choose to live in St Charles.


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It's not. I'm just stating reality. In normal countries, people don't choose to live in places like St. Charles.

You’re not stating reality. You are stating your reality.


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If it was reality, why are hellscapes like St. Charles no where else but North America? It's almost like it's not natural and it's designed like that.

I completely agree that there is a legacy of racism that informed the way the suburbs grew. I will even admit that today's racism is one (of several) factors for the way the metro area is continuing to evolve. 

But then what do we do with that information? You can't fix racism and you are not going to fix someone's desire to have a house built after 1980. So then is the city completely screwed? That's awfully depressing. 

Auggie wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

stlokc wrote:I can't stand St. Charles County and wouldn't live there if I was paid to do so.

So I can't believe I am defending them here but a couple of these posts were way too harsh. 

I worked out there for a decade and 99% of my co-workers lived in that county. White and black, by the way. Young and old. While I can't see into anybody's heart, and it's entirely possible some of them were hateful, I just can't believe all these white and black people were racist. Most of them in this century lived out there because they were born and raised out there and so it was just home. The small number that did move at one point from St. Louis County told me they moved because they could get more house for their money. 

Thanks for adding some much needed perspective from outside the urbanism/city bubble. When we don’t properly understand all the reasons for present day migration West, we can’t properly work towards solutions to stop it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The reason for present day migration are all baked in systemic racism. What do you not understand about that? Schools, housing, car culture are all how they are because racist people put racist policies in place to ensure that segregation did not end when it was made illegal.

Again. I don’t disagree racism was a big reason we built the suburbs. You are not really grasping why your point that people who move to the suburbs today are racist by default is wrong. You’ve never shown the ability on this forum to consider why your perspective may be wrong so this isn’t worth engaging. It’s just unfortunate because your perspective doesn’t really capture the reasons people move to the suburbs.


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Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

stlokc wrote:

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

It’s two different things, I think everyone understands that most people stick around the place they were born at, that’s one and the other is much darker, how that place become their home town.  That convo starts with what happened in the US post WWII and how the suburbs started

I definitely think we can agree on that. This metro area (and really the whole country but for some reason it seems more pronounced here) has some dark history. But I get nervous casting aspersions on present-day people for decisions their parents and grandparents made. The average person I knew working in St. Charles was not actively anti-city, they were ambivalent. A few of them admitted to me they would actually prefer to live in the city or at least St. Louis county but their whole lives were out there and that's a lot to overcome. 

I agree with this perspective. There’s also a reality that it cost a lot more money to get the same level of housing and schooling in the city as you get in St Charles.

I had friends that recently moved from South City to O’Fallon MO. They greatly preferred living in South City but the reality is they got 50% more home for their growing family and they get to send their kids to a grade school in the 80% percentile of testing vs the 25% percentile.

Many of the reasons historically the schooling is so different in these areas is steeped in racism, but the present day decision they made is not racist.


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Now you're just citing systemic racism and admitting that it's systemic racism. Glad to see that I'm right.

Auggie wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

Auggie wrote: It's not. I'm just stating reality. In normal countries, people don't choose to live in places like St. Charles.

You’re not stating reality. You are stating your reality.


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If it was reality, why are hellscapes like St. Charles no where else but North America? It's almost like it's not natural and it's designed like that.

Suburbs exist in many other countries.


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Back on topic here can you imagine what our economy would look like here in STL if corporate interests became involved in DT AND the city joined the county?

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

Auggie wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

Thanks for adding some much needed perspective from outside the urbanism/city bubble. When we don’t properly understand all the reasons for present day migration West, we can’t properly work towards solutions to stop it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The reason for present day migration are all baked in systemic racism. What do you not understand about that? Schools, housing, car culture are all how they are because racist people put racist policies in place to ensure that segregation did not end when it was made illegal.

Again. I don’t disagree racism was a big reason we built the suburbs. You are not really grasping why your point that people who move to the suburbs today are racist by default is wrong. You’ve never shown the ability on this forum to consider why your perspective may be wrong so this isn’t worth engaging. It’s just unfortunate because your perspective doesn’t really capture the reasons people move to the suburbs.


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Like button

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

Auggie wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

It’s an oversimplified explanation of why someone would choose to live in St Charles today.

There are people who choose better schools for their kids, prefer a more car oriented set up, and want newer/larger housing stock plus more land. Much of the population moving West today isn’t even white.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You've just proven my point. All the things you just cited are completely marred by systemic racism. Schools, car culture, and expensive commodity housing are all how it is because of racist polices put in place decades ago.

No one disagrees that racist policies were put in place decades ago that helped create the suburbs. Your original point was that you’d be hard pressed to find someone today who moves to St Charles who isn’t racist. That’s wrong for many of the reasons outlined above.


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My exact quote: "You'd be hard pressed to find someone moving to St. Charles without a systemically racist reason. And this applies for pretty much every sh*tty suburb in America."

Read before you start making things up.

Gotta agree with Auggie here. Why do white people get so defensive when they hear or see “racism”? Auggie never called anyone a bigot. He’s been talking about systemic racism the whole time

Because systemic racism is not the only reason people today are choosing to live in the suburbs. So if you want to stop the Western migration, you have to address other drivers as well. Don’t take my word for it, talk to people of various races that have made the decision to move out that way.


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