urbanSTL

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

Dec 04, 2024

It’s interesting that the popular discourse online and in media about the “rust belt comeback” focuses on Detroit, Milwaukee, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh, when every stat that comes out shows that it really is Indy, St. Louis and KC with the economic growth. I wonder why that is.

For the Motor and Steel Cities the story lines have such popular appeal, particularly for Detroit.  Dead cities recovering from dead industries that had defined their image in popular national imagination.   And these are hard core Rust Belt cities; KC and Indy not so much.  And I don't hear too much about Milwaukee and Cincinnati as rust belt comebacks. (Like St. Louis, I think these two are somewhere in between hard core and not so much in terms of rust belt-iness.)

Also, I think Cincinnati is our closest peer when you look at demographic and social characteristics... but they have been able to pump out population gains last decade along with the population estimates so far this one. And it has far less homicide and gun violence; which may play a role in its population growth.

Not bad

We’ve never bottomed out the way Cle, Det, and Pitt have. Greater StL’s population has only declined once over a census period and the decline was small. Those other cities have experienced large, sustained declines in population in their recent past

Forgot a few peers

All that's left standing between STL and a reputation of a "comeback city" is a more vibrant and exciting downtown. It's as simple as that.

Detroit is still getting hammered in a number of ways, but they have a nice downtown and central corridor so the weekend visitor leaves with an impression that things are turning around. Our weekend visitor that spends time downtown in its current state is less likely to leave with that impression.

cleaner MSA comp 

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

All that's left standing between STL and a reputation of a "comeback city" is a more vibrant and exciting downtown. It's as simple as that....Our weekend visitor that spends time downtown in its current state is less likely to leave with that impression.

Agree with this 1000000% -- tourists *choose* to go to a region's downtown, assuming it's a great representation of a place. here? not true at all. We mostly shine in our neighborhoods.

Even so,  frustratingly, I'm no longer sure what to do to improve downtown.  I'm a loooooooooong-time downtown booster and know that,  big picture, we "just" need more people walking the streets to/from businesses and/or attractions.  But, to try to spur that, DT has seen enormous tax $ subsidy among the sports stadiums, convention center, Wash Ave in the early 2000s, Arch grounds redo, Keiner redo, City Garden, etc.  I'm not sure throwing even more tax $ at DT is appropriate when the city has other big needs.

As mentioned here before (ad nauseum...lol), I long believe DT needs more workers, but post-Covid I don't think those jobs are coming back, so think a super close look at making downtown more a place for fun stuff is the way to go. And, we have momentum there.  Just not sure, that momentum can reach critical mass to allow wider DT STL to impress tourists. 

Tourists are pretty impressed with Downtown as is.  i talk to a lot of them, from Canada to Germany and even Luxembourg  

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

Tourists are pretty impressed with Downtown as is.  i talk to a lot of them, from Canada to Germany and even Luxembourg  

DB, I genuinely respect your downtown boosterism and fully believe that the handful of tourists you chat with are impressed with DT STL, but I stand by my assertion that *most*  tourists leave downtown STL uninspired and notice the lack of buzz between our anchor attractions.  

And no, I have no data to back up that claim. And DB's data is anecdotal. 

They had great time
https://www.instagram.com/s/aGlnaGxpZ2h ... JqbDF5MW01


2 more families here this weekend, younger couple from Chicago and a family from KC.
This is a project my wife pitched Explore STL to partial fund and she’s funding it herself partial with her employees time on execution. We are doing a welcome happy hour Friday at 360

Agreed. People judge a city by its downtown. And ours is not as vibrant as other cities (not that many others are great in their vibrancy either but people seem to especially think we are dead). Yes, downtown StL needs some street improvements, etc. but it has just as many residents, workers, entertainment, public spaces as other peer downtowns. Im sometimes at a loss on how to get more people downtown because we have just as much reason to be there, if not more, than others, and it is easier to get to than most other peers by driving and public transit.

We have one positive problem - we have more “main streets” in our region than many others outside the 10 largest metros. We have Delmar loop, S Grand, CWE, downtown Clayton, the Grove, Cherokee, Kirkwood, Webster, Maplewood all close together - most others may have 1 or 2 of those type areas. Our negative problem is that we have a more severe culture problem in StL towards our downtown than other regions amongst the region residents and business community. A lot of regions deal with the “too many homeless, too much crime downtown” attitude but our anti-downtown culture is more severe, despite both those things being no more severe in our downtown compared to others.

Might part of the problem be that our downtown isn't central to the region? Of course we have the Metro-East population, but I'd be curious to know what other major cities deal with a similar problem and how they overcome it.  

legendrey wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

Might part of the problem be that our downtown isn't central to the region? Of course we have the Metro-East population, but I'd be curious to know what other major cities deal with a similar problem and how they overcome it.  

Westward population trend has definitely moved center of the region to Clayton which probably matters to an extent, especially with corporate office decisions. That gets even more exacerbated by higher income levels particularly having a western migration. But downtown is still the center of the highway system and transit system, and it’s very easy to get around St. Louis generally. And with St, Charles County being the fastest growing and Metro East being the slowest and a lot of stagnation in between, it will just be something we have to overcome.

I don’t think its location is the problem. The number one complaint is crime and we all know that’s a dog whistle

In terms of relocating white collar jobs from within the region to downtown, location seems to be a larger issue than crime to me.

Our white collar employee base keeps moving West of DT and people simply don’t want a longer commute.

I know first hand that was the prevailing sentiment at Energizer as they considered their office move.

The East Sides continued decline vs the growth of St Charles doesn’t bode well for Downtown.


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Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

In terms of relocating white collar jobs from within the region to downtown, location seems to be a larger issue than crime to me.

Our white collar employee base keeps moving West of DT and people simply don’t want a longer commute.

I know first hand that was the prevailing sentiment at Energizer as they considered their office move.

The East Sides continued decline vs the growth of St Charles doesn’t bode well for Downtown.


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The continued movement west is called systemic racism.

Auggie wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

In terms of relocating white collar jobs from within the region to downtown, location seems to be a larger issue than crime to me.

Our white collar employee base keeps moving West of DT and people simply don’t want a longer commute.

I know first hand that was the prevailing sentiment at Energizer as they considered their office move.

The East Sides continued decline vs the growth of St Charles doesn’t bode well for Downtown.


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The continued movement west is called systemic racism.

That’s a drastic oversimplification of the cause, but I agree it’s a factor.


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The biggest issue remaining with downtown is that STL's business sector is uninterested in seriously investing in it. The city has pumped hundreds of millions into it with three stadiums, transit, convention center, residential, and now street upgrades. Meanwhile only companies like Stifel, Peabody, and Spire have made serious investments. Centene builds new towers in Clayton, Energizer and Emerson go to Clayton, RGA builds out in Narnia, Bunge also out in Narnia, MasterCard's office is a laughable joke, so is Citi, the only banks with their regional offices downtown are US Bank, BOA, and UMB.

Crime gets cited as an issue, but our DT crime is not worse than places like Detroit, Cleveland, or Indianapolis yet those three all get major corporate investments. The earnings tax gets cited as an issue, but Sherwin Williams' employees will pay a higher rate to work at the new SW headquarters in downtown CLE.

I do not know what more the city can do beyond what it has been doing for years now to attract more businesses downtown. The state can do more, sure. But the ultimate reality is that STL's business sector is completely suburban dominated by people who hate the city, hate downtown, and probably say there's too many undesirables on metro as for why they don't use it or want it. No amount of tax dollars from the city, state, or feds is going to change that.

As with most problems in this city, it can be strung back to the city-county split.

Auggie wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Dec 05, 2024

Auggie wrote: The continued movement west is called systemic racism.

That’s a drastic oversimplification of the cause, but I agree it’s a factor.


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You'd be hard pressed to find someone moving to St. Charles without a systemically racist reason. And this applies for pretty much every sh*tty suburb in America.

This is a complete lack of understanding of why many people choose to live in St Charles.


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I don’t think it’s an oversimplification at all. If you create a time lapse map StL’s westward expansion based on race, it will look like white people are running away from black people.

It’s an oversimplified explanation of why someone would choose to live in St Charles today.

There are people who choose better schools for their kids, prefer a more car oriented set up, and want newer/larger housing stock plus more land. Much of the population moving West today isn’t even white.


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Sure it is. It’s North County white people,
particularly Florissant, Overland, Bridgeton, and Hazelwood moving to St. Chuck, Warren and Lincoln Counties.