urbanSTL

Honestly Police downtown are very visible, I literally see them all the time, but the main problem is that I don't see them doing anything but driving around (But crime is down).  Our downtown is very pointless to walk around.  Our major problem, that other smaller cities have figured out, is that we have no attractions (food, bars, shopping, excitement).  I went to Memphis a month ago and even on a Sunday, they had plenty of people walking around through the streets of downtown. Saturday night doesn't compare to here. I've even seen more walkable traffic in downtown Columbus. We only see traffic if there is a concert or sporting event, and even then, those people don't stay after the game to patronize anything anymore. There are maybe less that three actual retail clothing spots. There should dozens of restaurants that people should be able to got to for themed brunches or just a good night out, but there realistically isn't.  There's barely a grocery store, not even a CVS or Walgreens. It would be so much easier for the residents to stay put in downtown if there was a reason to.

Colin Marc wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

Honestly Police downtown are very visible, I literally see them all the time, but the main problem is that I don't see them doing anything but driving around (But crime is down).  Our downtown is very pointless to walk around.  Our major problem, that other smaller cities have figured out, is that we have no attractions (food, bars, shopping, excitement).  I went to Memphis a month ago and even on a Sunday, they had plenty of people walking around through the streets of downtown. Saturday night doesn't compare to here. I've even seen more walkable traffic in downtown Columbus. We only see traffic if there is a concert or sporting event, and even then, those people don't stay after the game to patronize anything anymore. There are maybe less that three actual retail clothing spots. There should dozens of restaurants that people should be able to got to for themed brunches or just a good night out, but there realistically isn't.  There's barely a grocery store, not even a CVS or Walgreens. It would be so much easier for the residents to stay put in downtown if there was a reason to.

Yes, I've always said I that downtown St. Louis and the city as a whole is severely under retailed. Even our beautiful commercial strips in more stable neighborhoods are not as vibrant as they should be. I think Downtown suffers from being too big for the current size of the city. It will likely need to double it's population in order to see the vibrancy you see in successful downtown. I'm hoping with the new retail initiative that Greater STL Inc is pushing that will change perceptions and foot traffic.

I'm also glad that we are finally breaking ground on the much needed street infrastructure projects. That has really hurt downtown's perception in my opinion, because not only is it sleepy but the 1960s crumbling infrastructure does it no favors at all. New sidewalks, freshly paved streets, and some greenery will totally change the perception for a lot of people. I also think once we finish rehabbing the final historic buildings and infill is the only option for new development, downtown will have a major image change. Whether we like it or not, people like flashy, new glassy towers, and St. Louis starting with a much larger and older core that needed rehabilitation and much slower growth, has pretty much missed what other cities have been doing for the last 20 years. A building like the Butlers Building with it's hundreds of apartments would be a 30 story glass tower in say Nashville or Charlotte, which changes the cities skyline and adds to the perception of progress. The good thing about St. Louis is that once we get into our next phase of development, it will be even more special because we will have a good mix of modern and historic architecture that many cities our size can't match.

Colin Marc wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

Honestly Police downtown are very visible, I literally see them all the time, but the main problem is that I don't see them doing anything but driving around (But crime is down).  Our downtown is very pointless to walk around.  Our major problem, that other smaller cities have figured out, is that we have no attractions (food, bars, shopping, excitement).  I went to Memphis a month ago and even on a Sunday, they had plenty of people walking around through the streets of downtown. Saturday night doesn't compare to here. I've even seen more walkable traffic in downtown Columbus. We only see traffic if there is a concert or sporting event, and even then, those people don't stay after the game to patronize anything anymore. There are maybe less that three actual retail clothing spots. There should dozens of restaurants that people should be able to got to for themed brunches or just a good night out, but there realistically isn't.  There's barely a grocery store, not even a CVS or Walgreens. It would be so much easier for the residents to stay put in downtown if there was a reason to.

We have multiple non sport destinations that get millions visitors a year- Arch, Union Station, City Musuem. Ballpark Village gets 3m visitors excluding baseball attendance.

Now if those 4 were within half a sq mile of each other it would feel different. Now we can’t really do much when it comes to moving those closer together, the arch is where it’s at as is union station and city museum but we can make the connections to those easier and safer and without a need to get in a car to get them. That’s actively being worked on as is brining things to the areas in between them to make it feel more jointed.

The “people who come for sports events just go see a game and go home” just isn’t true. They eat at restaurants before and after the games and events and concerts and comedy shows. Enterprise/Stifel have 275 events a year and are a major reason why Union station will do $80,000,000 in revenue this year.

Chesterfield the new hub for STL....Really? 

This kind of vision not only hurts DT, but STL in general. 

https://www.westnewsmagazine.com/news/s ... efd05.html

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

Colin Marc wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

Honestly Police downtown are very visible, I literally see them all the time, but the main problem is that I don't see them doing anything but driving around (But crime is down).  Our downtown is very pointless to walk around.  Our major problem, that other smaller cities have figured out, is that we have no attractions (food, bars, shopping, excitement).  I went to Memphis a month ago and even on a Sunday, they had plenty of people walking around through the streets of downtown. Saturday night doesn't compare to here. I've even seen more walkable traffic in downtown Columbus. We only see traffic if there is a concert or sporting event, and even then, those people don't stay after the game to patronize anything anymore. There are maybe less that three actual retail clothing spots. There should dozens of restaurants that people should be able to got to for themed brunches or just a good night out, but there realistically isn't.  There's barely a grocery store, not even a CVS or Walgreens. It would be so much easier for the residents to stay put in downtown if there was a reason to.

We have multiple non sport destinations that get millions visitors a year- Arch, Union Station, City Musuem.   Ballpark Village gets 3m visitors excluding baseball attendance.  

Now if those 4 were within half a sq mile of each other it would feel different.   Now we can’t really do much when it comes to moving those closer together, the arch is where it’s at as is union station and city museum but we can make the connections to those easier and safer and without a need to get in a car to get them.  That’s actively being worked on as is brining things to the areas in between them to make it feel more jointed.

The “people who come for sports events just go see a game and go home” just isn’t true.  They eat at restaurants before and after the games and events and concerts and comedy shows.  Enterprise/Stifel have 275 events a year and are a major reason why Union station will do $80,000,000 in revenue this year.

Out of those 4 non sporting destinations, only one of them you can visit in the evening, BPV.  I've stayed in downtown the for the past six years, in actual downtown, and also worked late night in downtown, and trust me when I tell you, people go to games and go home after.  A baseball game averaging 35-40k people, hockey and soccer 18k/22k, there should be no reason why an hour after those let out, downtown is dead again. The people that go to these sporting events, don't care about downtown enough to patronize it.  

I don't where you think that the crowd that goes to Enterprise for an event, even thinks of Union Station, where's the coalition? Don't tell me that 18k people an event are going to Landry's and The Soda Fountain.  Enterprise sees about 2 million people a year from hockey and other events. Maybe 1% of those people are eating at those places.

Colin Marc wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

Colin Marc wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

Honestly Police downtown are very visible, I literally see them all the time, but the main problem is that I don't see them doing anything but driving around (But crime is down).  Our downtown is very pointless to walk around.  Our major problem, that other smaller cities have figured out, is that we have no attractions (food, bars, shopping, excitement).  I went to Memphis a month ago and even on a Sunday, they had plenty of people walking around through the streets of downtown. Saturday night doesn't compare to here. I've even seen more walkable traffic in downtown Columbus. We only see traffic if there is a concert or sporting event, and even then, those people don't stay after the game to patronize anything anymore. There are maybe less that three actual retail clothing spots. There should dozens of restaurants that people should be able to got to for themed brunches or just a good night out, but there realistically isn't.  There's barely a grocery store, not even a CVS or Walgreens. It would be so much easier for the residents to stay put in downtown if there was a reason to.

We have multiple non sport destinations that get millions visitors a year- Arch, Union Station, City Musuem.   Ballpark Village gets 3m visitors excluding baseball attendance.  

Now if those 4 were within half a sq mile of each other it would feel different.   Now we can’t really do much when it comes to moving those closer together, the arch is where it’s at as is union station and city museum but we can make the connections to those easier and safer and without a need to get in a car to get them.  That’s actively being worked on as is brining things to the areas in between them to make it feel more jointed.

The “people who come for sports events just go see a game and go home” just isn’t true.  They eat at restaurants before and after the games and events and concerts and comedy shows.  Enterprise/Stifel have 275 events a year and are a major reason why Union station will do $80,000,000 in revenue this year.

Out of those 4 non sporting destinations, only one of them you can visit in the evening, BPV.  I've stayed in downtown the for the past six years, in actual downtown, and also worked late night in downtown, and trust me when I tell you, people go to games and go home after.  A baseball game averaging 35-40k people, hockey and soccer 18k/22k, there should be no reason why an hour after those let out, downtown is dead again. The people that go to these sporting events, don't care about downtown enough to patronize it.  

I don't where you think that the crowd that goes to Enterprise for an event, even thinks of Union Station, where's the coalition? Don't tell me that 18k people an event are going to Landry's and The Soda Fountain.  Enterprise sees about 2 million people a year from hockey and other events. Maybe 1% of those people are eating at those places.

The problem is the Enterprise Center is in the middle of a wasteland. Look at Kansas City, Nashville, Indianapolis, St. Paul (NHL), Minneapolis (NBA), Memphis : all of them have pre and post game bars within a block. We have nothing except The Pitch and Maggie O's which are 7 blocks away. We're almost as bad as some suburban arena like Ottawa or Florida.

courtland wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

Chesterfield the new hub for STL....Really? 

This kind of vision not only hurts DT, but STL in general. 

https://www.westnewsmagazine.com/news/s ... efd05.html

Realistically the best Staenberg can hope for here is that it becomes another enclave like Clayton but I think that is quite ambitious.

dweebe wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

^ SLMPD covers 62 sq miles with 950 officers today,   Kansas City covers 300 sq miles with 950
Officers today and Cincinnati covers 80 sq miles with 1000 officers.

Nobody can actually tell me how big SLMPD should be.  We have a budgeted amount of 1225 but historically 100 or so were always just FTE for OT pay.      City our size pop wise would require 715 officers.

So we have too many police?

Where are they?

Idk. I think like our Fire dept we are top heavy. And SLMPD has a lot of officers in specialized units, like swat don’t mostly just hangs out all day.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

Colin Marc wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

Honestly Police downtown are very visible, I literally see them all the time, but the main problem is that I don't see them doing anything but driving around (But crime is down).  Our downtown is very pointless to walk around.  Our major problem, that other smaller cities have figured out, is that we have no attractions (food, bars, shopping, excitement).  I went to Memphis a month ago and even on a Sunday, they had plenty of people walking around through the streets of downtown. Saturday night doesn't compare to here. I've even seen more walkable traffic in downtown Columbus. We only see traffic if there is a concert or sporting event, and even then, those people don't stay after the game to patronize anything anymore. There are maybe less that three actual retail clothing spots. There should dozens of restaurants that people should be able to got to for themed brunches or just a good night out, but there realistically isn't.  There's barely a grocery store, not even a CVS or Walgreens. It would be so much easier for the residents to stay put in downtown if there was a reason to.

We have multiple non sport destinations that get millions visitors a year- Arch, Union Station, City Musuem.   Ballpark Village gets 3m visitors excluding baseball attendance.  

Now if those 4 were within half a sq mile of each other it would feel different.   Now we can’t really do much when it comes to moving those closer together, the arch is where it’s at as is union station and city museum but we can make the connections to those easier and safer and without a need to get in a car to get them.  That’s actively being worked on as is brining things to the areas in between them to make it feel more jointed.

The “people who come for sports events just go see a game and go home” just isn’t true.  They eat at restaurants before and after the games and events and concerts and comedy shows.  Enterprise/Stifel have 275 events a year and are a major reason why Union station will do $80,000,000 in revenue this year.

I think this hits the nail on the head. Our attractions pull - Busch, Enterprise, Arch, City Museum, Stifel Theatre, Union Station, City Park, and I do think those people spend money downtown.

The problem is there isn’t casual activity every day between these destinations. Wash Ave has decent days and times on its own. BPV complex gets weekend nightlife. Outside of that, light foot traffic during average weekday evenings and weekends. We now have limited office workers downtown, and the problem is I don’t think they venture much around downtown after 5. And downtown doesn’t have enough residents yet to replace that foregone culture.

As DB notes, the city is working on streetscaping. They are also working on the most glaring abandoned buildings. We have to start somewhere. Attract more casual foot traffic and those more restaurants, bars, and retail. Wash Ave and Olive could certainly be vibrant retail streets. with lots of patio dining, etc.

I think Downtown needs an event coordinator who is responsible for proactively identifying the quiet weekends and working with attractions and spaces to fill them up.

We also need to lean heavily into (1) small group and event attraction and (2) street activation with pop-ups and street closures.

addxb2 wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

I think Downtown needs an event coordinator who is responsible for proactively identifying the quiet weekends and working with attractions and spaces to fill them up.

We also need to lean heavily into (1) small group and event attraction and (2) street activation with pop-ups and street closures.

Yes, a lot of downtowns do this. Unless you're NYC, SF, DC etc. where the built in density and transit is already there it is hard to have organic traffic in most American cities. This will also attract more investment and density. Downtown needs training wheels before it can ride solo. I'm glad Greater StL recognizes this and is actively addressing the issue. Also, the investment in infrastructure and beautification is needed as soon as possible. Having a dead downtown is one thing, but dead and rundown looking is a bigger issue.

Good thing we have a Downtown that’s not dead nor rundown, only time you see trash on the streets is in the mornings and usually on the weekends (that trash didn’t bring itself) and by 10 am the downtown clean team has it taken care off. I’ve been to about 60 downtowns since start of 2021 and when it comes to overall cleanness, we are in top 25% and that’s largely thanks to the clean team and the extensive investment in planters, which you can now find all over downtown

Any shot that STL could benefit from Trump's plan to move 100,000 jobs out of DC? Part of his plan was also to move some government agencies out of DC. Any possibility STL could land one? Downtown has lots of cheap vacant office space, could be attractive for people who want "government efficiency".

Auggie wrote: ↑

Nov 19, 2024

Any shot that STL could benefit from Trump's plan to move 100,000 jobs out of DC? Part of his plan was also to move some government agencies out of DC. Any possibility STL could land one? Downtown has lots of cheap vacant office space, could be attractive for people who want "government efficiency".

Nothing positive can come to STL from
Trump admin. We’d be lucky to keep the 1,000 USDA jobs at One Met and rest of the federal jobs at the Fed building on Tucker

I might be wrong but I feel like mayor jones is anti downtown instead of being pro downtown I can’t think of one thing she’s done to really promote St.Louis let alone any real economic development downtown. This whole progressives movement has been an utter disappointment imo thus far & a complete waste of time. Also others are responsible for the lack there of that’s happening as well. I just want to see some good wins in this city for a change whether they are small & big there needs to be a dire push for better. I wish I were a billionaire I’d do my best to make this city great. I feel like time is running out just my 1 cent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

^ She's definitely not anti-downtown. She's supported numerous Downtown redevelopment projects including some that will take some time to begin (and the higher interest rates haven't particularly helped) as well as as bike/ped projects, etc. She's also been a big supporter of the Metrolink greenline which Downtown West will be a major beneficiary.  

And looking back at things, imo it was the 2010s that was somewhat of a "lost decade." Overall, the 2010s were great times for downtowns across the country but we just didn't see type of transformational change that many others experienced. Sure, we had a few wins on the Back-to-Downtown corporate movement, but the losses essentially wiped those out. Even the massive Arch grounds investment was largely a let down. Population continued to increase, but again not enough to stimulate significant commercial activity, especially retail. As someone on the previous page mentioned, our baseline for downtown activity heading into the pandemic was pretty poor.  Not that there weren't some successes, but Mayors Slay and Krewson essentially presided over rather disappointing times for Downtown.

The real problem with the area around the Enterprise Center is the ridiculous 60's urban renewal that tore down the cohesive neighborhood and replaced it with a disjointed mess of dead parks, commie towers with no retail, and of course parking lots.

If STL had been a growing city in the past 20 years we probably would have seen some sensible development fill in these cracks but it's current state is pretty rough.

Corridor development needs to be the name of the game in Downtown:

• Wash Ave is already in decent shape but could use some infill west of 14th. 

• The 7th street project will be fantastic for getting people between the convention center and BPV, even more so when/if Railway Exchange is renovated.
• Bikeways on Tucker, Broadway/4th, and 20th Street are in progress and will bring actual residents into downtown from nearby neighborhoods
• Completed Brickline will hopefully bring life to some of the dead parcels of the Gateway Mall and be a vital E/W connector through the disjointed south downtown.
• Clark Ave has been mentioned on here before and that might be the final piece of vital connective tissue needed. Obviously getting this street to a high level of daily activity and urbanism between the Arch and Union Station is going to be a long hill to climb but there are some very low hanging fruit infrastructure and streetscaping projects that could make the walking experience better. Add in a few solid infill projects on surface lots and Clark is in a much better place

We also need to enforce the addition of ground level retail to all projects downtown. No more featureless parking garages (looking you STL City SC) or apartment buildings that use the ground floor as parking. I understand that retail is not exactly a hot investment downtown, but one can argue that allowing so many projects to ignore retail over the past 60 years is exactly why our downtown is too disjointed to support the vibrant streetlife that retail needs to survive. If you need to park cars on the ground floor to get the project off the ground, fine, but make sure that it's at least configured in such a way that future retail conversion is possible.

STLrainbow wrote: ↑

Nov 19, 2024

^ She's definitely not anti-downtown. She's supported numerous Downtown redevelopment projects including some that will take some time to begin (and the higher interest rates haven't particularly helped) as well as as bike/ped projects, etc. She's also been a big supporter of the Metrolink greenline which Downtown West will be a major beneficiary.  

And looking back at things, imo it was the 2010s that was somewhat of a "lost decade." Overall, the 2010s were great times for downtowns across the country but we just didn't see type of transformational change that many others experienced. Sure, we had a few wins on the Back-to-Downtown corporate movement, but the losses essentially wiped those out. Even the massive Arch grounds investment was largely a let down. Population continued to increase, but again not enough to stimulate significant commercial activity, especially retail. As someone on the previous page mentioned, our baseline for downtown activity heading into the pandemic was pretty poor.  Not that there weren't some successes, but Mayors Slay and Krewson essentially presided over rather disappointing times for Downtown.

I agree, Slay basically kept the city status quote for 16 years. Krewson also did very little and was basically a continuation of Slay. N-S should have been built.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2024

^ SLMPD covers 62 sq miles with 950 officers today,   Kansas City covers 300 sq miles with 950
Officers today and Cincinnati covers 80 sq miles with 1000 officers.

Nobody can actually tell me how big SLMPD should be.  We have a budgeted amount of 1225 but historically 100 or so were always just FTE for OT pay.      City our size pop wise would require 715 officers.

I appreciate the statistics.  I guess it points to mismanagement.  I live near downtown St Louis and frequent sporting events.  I go back to Cincinnati frequently.  If you had told me Cincy's department was 3 times the size of St Louis's I would have believed you.  It must be a role/type of job thing I guess?  We have too many SWAT people and not enough on-the-street cops?

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

Nov 19, 2024

The real problem with the area around the Enterprise Center is the ridiculous 60's urban renewal that tore down the cohesive neighborhood and replaced it with a disjointed mess of dead parks, commie towers with no retail, and of course parking lots.

I would love to see construction along Clark Ave - there was a push to turn it into 'sports alley' a couple of years back I believe championed by @dbInSouthCity if I recall correctly, no? Bars and shops along Clark would go a long way toward making that happen.

Probably the easiest thing would be to build on the City Hall parking lot. But I'd love to see the Metrolink tracks along Clark capped and either built directly on, or on the parking lot to the south with the cap serving as a plaza (not ideal, as there's plenty of plaza space there but that's probably cheaper). The Clark Ave on/offramp to I-64 can probably go away entirely as there are redundant highway access points two blocks east and five blocks west, which would open up the space immediately north of the Edison Bros building for development.  

There's restaurant/bar space just a couple of blocks away from the arena in the parking garage at Clark & Tucker but you'd never know it from the Enterprise Center - wayfinding signs at the main entry points would be useful, as would making the pedestrian crossing experience at Market more palatable. Hang some 'The Grove'-style signage over Clark street, light pole flags, etc, celebrating the Blues, Cardinals, and City SC/soccer history to make that corridor more engaging. Encourage artists to build sports-themed art along the path, etc. Lots of opportunities for improvement there.

-RBB

US Bank downtown STL office tower will be designated as one of their hubs and everyone that’s working from home within certain amount of miles will be required to come to the office probably at least 3 days a week starting next year.

PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑

Nov 19, 2024

I might be wrong but I feel like mayor jones is anti downtown instead of being pro downtown I can’t think of one thing she’s done to really promote St.Louis let alone any real economic development downtown. This whole progressives movement has been an utter disappointment imo thus far & a complete waste of time. Also others are responsible for the lack there of that’s happening as well. I just want to see some good wins in this city for a change whether they are small & big there needs to be a dire push for better. I wish I were a billionaire I’d do my best to make this city great. I feel like time is running out just my 1 cent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I disagree a lot. She has been the best mayor for St. Louis this century. She is the reason the Green Line might happen, she has supported grant programs for downtown retail, she has supported street improvements for downtown, from everything we can see she has a decent relationship with Greater STL, her handling of SLMPD has been really good, her rhetoric is always coming to downtown's defense and reminding people how important it is. Downtown has landed a handful of solid job relocations during her tenure as well. She's also done way more about big vacant buildings than Krewson did.

Not saying she's been prefect, but I'm not gonna complain when STL had ***** Slay for 16 years.