I didn't say all of the Gen Z crowd. I specifically pointed to a segment. I lived in Chicago for 19 years and was born in Minneapolis. Both cities are having the same issues. Michigan Ave businesses are closing right and left. Same with First Avenue in Minneapolis, so this certainly isn't just a Saint Louis issue. Let's focus on the U City loop as an example. Young people have hung out there for literally decades. I was one of them in the late 70's-early 80's. Diverse, urban kids gathering and creating few problems. Fast forward thirty years and the same age groups are still present but occasionally the ratchet crowd will throw a flash mob message across social media and BOOM! Chaos ensues. Many in the ratchet group have very little self respect and virtually no respect for others. The intent in gathering or car show/drifting is to disrupt. This movement is like a simmering form of protest. The angst is real and the cause is ongoing institutional racism giving these kids little hope for the future. Policing can help mitigate the problems but certainly won't solve the issue and might actually feed the fire. The City generally pushes the crowds from one location to another. What's needed is engagement to provide activities for youth and job training to provide hope for the future. Some of this is starting to happen and with continued focus can really make a difference.goat314 wrote: ↑Nov 14, 2024The young people who are just walking around, hanging out with their friends are the same people that come down and spend real money when they're a couple years older. That's what is wrong with St. Louis, it does nothing to become attractive to younger people. That's why most leave when the first chance they get. Go to any successful city and you'll see tons of young people, just hanging out downtown, like kids used to do at suburban malls. That's a good thing. Now if we need better infrastructure and policing to handle the crowds, then I'm all for that but saying you don't want to see Gen Z out there because they're just chilling is not the right mindset to have a healthy city center.STLinCHI wrote: ↑Nov 14, 2024Nope. It's class not demo. Tracksuit and yoga pants wearing teens and early 20's who just want to hang out while not spending a nickel in adjacent establishments. Same issues the loop and other locations like the Landing and Arch/LKS Blvd have dealt with. It's not a matter of "like" or "dislike". It's a matter of what is happening to the businesses. I personally know several operators of Wash Ave establishments who have closed or are really hurting and on the verge of closing. Same with condo owners who have bailed out because of this element. Heck, I used to own three businesses on the street in the 90's and while we had issues from NLEC folks, we didn't have sidewalks full of teens creating a ratchet vibe. You can deny it all you want but there's a sizeable number of youth today who live life defined by GTA and low brow hip hop culture. When these kids gather there's nothing positive about what goes down. You also have events like Paintlouis which gather a very diverse group centered around real hip hop culture and the vibe is completely different. The ratchet crowd IS the issue.
Hard disagree on spending it on downtown. People voted on the city poll how they want it spent although I think only city employees voted to raise wages.
But besides the disagreement of where it is spent I'm having doubts about them being transparent enough with how the north city grant thing is working out.
contemporary slang for troublemakers, ne'er-do-wells, etc. Imagine the most aggressively antisocial kids from your high school if they had also suffered a lifetime of internet brainrot.framer wrote: ↑Nov 14, 2024What exactly is a "ratchet crowd"?
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I strongly feel that we should convert one of these parking lots to a multi-level sports complex which includes tennis courts, baseball courts, pickleball courts, etc. so that our youth can benefit from these activities.goat314 wrote: ↑Nov 14, 2024The young people who are just walking around, hanging out with their friends are the same people that come down and spend real money when they're a couple years older. That's what is wrong with St. Louis, it does nothing to become attractive to younger people. That's why most leave when the first chance they get. Go to any successful city and you'll see tons of young people, just hanging out downtown, like kids used to do at suburban malls. That's a good thing. Now if we need better infrastructure and policing to handle the crowds, then I'm all for that but saying you don't want to see Gen Z out there because they're just chilling is not the right mindset to have a healthy city center.STLinCHI wrote: ↑Nov 14, 2024Nope. It's class not demo. Tracksuit and yoga pants wearing teens and early 20's who just want to hang out while not spending a nickel in adjacent establishments. Same issues the loop and other locations like the Landing and Arch/LKS Blvd have dealt with. It's not a matter of "like" or "dislike". It's a matter of what is happening to the businesses. I personally know several operators of Wash Ave establishments who have closed or are really hurting and on the verge of closing. Same with condo owners who have bailed out because of this element. Heck, I used to own three businesses on the street in the 90's and while we had issues from NLEC folks, we didn't have sidewalks full of teens creating a ratchet vibe. You can deny it all you want but there's a sizeable number of youth today who live life defined by GTA and low brow hip hop culture. When these kids gather there's nothing positive about what goes down. You also have events like Paintlouis which gather a very diverse group centered around real hip hop culture and the vibe is completely different. The ratchet crowd IS the issue.
^As a no-cost public facility funded by taxes? stlurbanist more like stl-COMMUNIST...
/S
Seriously though, sounds great. Anything to activate the wasted space of surface level parking. Giving the youth something constructive to do is double bonus.
/S
Seriously though, sounds great. Anything to activate the wasted space of surface level parking. Giving the youth something constructive to do is double bonus.
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Spending it on Downtown (not all of it, nobody has suggested that) was voted as one of the 5 ideas to move forward to a hearing. But how people voted is not relevant, that entire process was set up by the Board President. The Mayor will have her own priorities that will come out soon.flipz wrote: ↑Nov 14, 2024Hard disagree on spending it on downtown. People voted on the city poll how they want it spent although I think only city employees voted to raise wages.
But besides the disagreement of where it is spent I'm having doubts about them being transparent enough with how the north city grant thing is working out.
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GRG could activate their massive lot by the Ballpark with some of those activities. Anyway youth need third spaces and constructive outlets.stlurbanist wrote: ↑Nov 14, 2024I strongly feel that we should convert one of these parking lots to a multi-level sports complex which includes tennis courts, baseball courts, pickleball courts, etc. so that our youth can benefit from these activities.
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I don’t care for this mainly because it creates another decision making silo in Downtown. If I had my way we’d get rid of the existing property tax based city, implement a 1 cent sales tax cid that covers 63101, 63102 and 63103 all the way to grand. This shifts the tax burden from local property owners to mostly out of city limits and town visitors and a 1 cent would raise $20,000,000 a year
St. Louis City is undertaking a series of significant roadway projects in Downtown, with investments totaling approximately $40 million over the next 12 to 18 months. These projects aim to enhance infrastructure, improve traffic flow, and bolster connectivity within Downtown. Below is an overview of the projects:
1. 7th Street Improvement Project ($3.5 million): This project focuses on connecting major downtown anchors by enhancing 7th Street between Ballpark Village and America’s Center on Washington Avenue. Under Construction righ now.
2. 4th Street Enhancements ($3.0 million): 4th is a major N/S route that is too wide, this project will improve the roadway and add a cycle track. 2025 Construction
3.Broadway and Washington Avenue Upgrades ($7.5 million): Traffic calming project and roadway improvements. 2025 Construction
4. Tucker Boulevard Enhancements ($1.4 million): The Tucker Bike-Walk-Bus Project, part of Trailnet’s Connecting St. Louis plan, encompasses 0.9 miles of Tucker Boulevard from Chouteau Avenue north across the 12th Street bridge to Washington Avenue, featuring a protected cycle track along Tucker’s western edge. (bidding now, construction next spring)
5. 21st Street Improvements ($4.0 million): Upgrades to 21st Street are designed to improve traffic flow and pedestrian safety, supporting the city's broader mobility objectives. (complete)
6. 20th Street Mobility Improvements ($4.0 million in Downtown West; $10.9 million total): This project aims to create a low-stress multimodal corridor that safely moves people, bridging the gap between downtown and North St. Louis. (in bidding)
7. Market Street Brickline Greenway ($14.0 million): The Brickline Greenway project received $9.9 million in federal funds to build a path connecting downtown to forest park, this phase is under construction from CityPark to Compton.
To Do List, these are projects that I think the City should tackle next;
1.Olive Street from Tucker to Jefferson, should be 1 lane in each direction with center median (est. $5M)
2.Market from Arch to Jefferson- lane reduction and safety improvements (est $5M)
3. Clark Ave- from Busch to Union Station- new pavement, safety features (est $3m)
4. General paving/striping downtown wide: $5-7M
1. 7th Street Improvement Project ($3.5 million): This project focuses on connecting major downtown anchors by enhancing 7th Street between Ballpark Village and America’s Center on Washington Avenue. Under Construction righ now.
2. 4th Street Enhancements ($3.0 million): 4th is a major N/S route that is too wide, this project will improve the roadway and add a cycle track. 2025 Construction
3.Broadway and Washington Avenue Upgrades ($7.5 million): Traffic calming project and roadway improvements. 2025 Construction
4. Tucker Boulevard Enhancements ($1.4 million): The Tucker Bike-Walk-Bus Project, part of Trailnet’s Connecting St. Louis plan, encompasses 0.9 miles of Tucker Boulevard from Chouteau Avenue north across the 12th Street bridge to Washington Avenue, featuring a protected cycle track along Tucker’s western edge. (bidding now, construction next spring)
5. 21st Street Improvements ($4.0 million): Upgrades to 21st Street are designed to improve traffic flow and pedestrian safety, supporting the city's broader mobility objectives. (complete)
6. 20th Street Mobility Improvements ($4.0 million in Downtown West; $10.9 million total): This project aims to create a low-stress multimodal corridor that safely moves people, bridging the gap between downtown and North St. Louis. (in bidding)
7. Market Street Brickline Greenway ($14.0 million): The Brickline Greenway project received $9.9 million in federal funds to build a path connecting downtown to forest park, this phase is under construction from CityPark to Compton.
To Do List, these are projects that I think the City should tackle next;
1.Olive Street from Tucker to Jefferson, should be 1 lane in each direction with center median (est. $5M)
2.Market from Arch to Jefferson- lane reduction and safety improvements (est $5M)
3. Clark Ave- from Busch to Union Station- new pavement, safety features (est $3m)
4. General paving/striping downtown wide: $5-7M
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never mind....What exactly is being done as part of 7th street improvement project?dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 15, 2024St. Louis City is undertaking a series of significant roadway projects in Downtown, with investments totaling approximately $40 million over the next 12 to 18 months. These projects aim to enhance infrastructure, improve traffic flow, and bolster connectivity within Downtown. Below is an overview of the projects:
1. 7th Street Improvement Project ($3.5 million): This project focuses on connecting major downtown anchors by enhancing 7th Street between Ballpark Village and America’s Center on Washington Avenue. Under Construction righ now.
2. 4th Street Enhancements ($3.0 million): 4th is a major N/S route that is too wide, this project will improve the roadway and add a cycle track. 2025 Construction
3.Broadway and Washington Avenue Upgrades ($7.5 million): Traffic calming project and roadway improvements. 2025 Construction
4. Tucker Boulevard Enhancements ($1.4 million): The Tucker Bike-Walk-Bus Project, part of Trailnet’s Connecting St. Louis plan, encompasses 0.9 miles of Tucker Boulevard from Chouteau Avenue north across the 12th Street bridge to Washington Avenue, featuring a protected cycle track along Tucker’s western edge. (bidding now, construction next spring)
5. 21st Street Improvements ($4.0 million): Upgrades to 21st Street are designed to improve traffic flow and pedestrian safety, supporting the city's broader mobility objectives. (complete)
6. 20th Street Mobility Improvements ($4.0 million in Downtown West; $10.9 million total): This project aims to create a low-stress multimodal corridor that safely moves people, bridging the gap between downtown and North St. Louis. (in bidding)
7. Market Street Brickline Greenway ($14.0 million): The Brickline Greenway project received $9.9 million in federal funds to build a path connecting downtown to forest park, this phase is under construction from CityPark to Compton.
To Do List, these are projects that I think the City should tackle next;
1.Olive Street from Tucker to Jefferson, should be 1 lane in each direction with center median (est. $5M)
2.Market from Arch to Jefferson- lane reduction and safety improvements (est $5M)
3. Clark Ave- from Busch to Union Station- new pavement, safety features (est $3m)
4. General paving/striping downtown wide: $5-7M
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... Size-1.pdf
Then about 5 minutes after all of these are done, Spire, Ameren, Mo Am Water and MSD will all have to do major projects that require tearing up the completed work.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 15, 2024St. Louis City is undertaking a series of significant roadway projects in Downtown, with investments totaling approximately $40 million over the next 12 to 18 months. These projects aim to enhance infrastructure, improve traffic flow, and bolster connectivity within Downtown. Below is an overview of the projects:
1. 7th Street Improvement Project ($3.5 million): This project focuses on connecting major downtown anchors by enhancing 7th Street between Ballpark Village and America’s Center on Washington Avenue. Under Construction righ now.
2. 4th Street Enhancements ($3.0 million): 4th is a major N/S route that is too wide, this project will improve the roadway and add a cycle track. 2025 Construction
3.Broadway and Washington Avenue Upgrades ($7.5 million): Traffic calming project and roadway improvements. 2025 Construction
4. Tucker Boulevard Enhancements ($1.4 million): The Tucker Bike-Walk-Bus Project, part of Trailnet’s Connecting St. Louis plan, encompasses 0.9 miles of Tucker Boulevard from Chouteau Avenue north across the 12th Street bridge to Washington Avenue, featuring a protected cycle track along Tucker’s western edge. (bidding now, construction next spring)
5. 21st Street Improvements ($4.0 million): Upgrades to 21st Street are designed to improve traffic flow and pedestrian safety, supporting the city's broader mobility objectives. (complete)
6. 20th Street Mobility Improvements ($4.0 million in Downtown West; $10.9 million total): This project aims to create a low-stress multimodal corridor that safely moves people, bridging the gap between downtown and North St. Louis. (in bidding)
7. Market Street Brickline Greenway ($14.0 million): The Brickline Greenway project received $9.9 million in federal funds to build a path connecting downtown to forest park, this phase is under construction from CityPark to Compton.
To Do List, these are projects that I think the City should tackle next;
1.Olive Street from Tucker to Jefferson, should be 1 lane in each direction with center median (est. $5M)
2.Market from Arch to Jefferson- lane reduction and safety improvements (est $5M)
3. Clark Ave- from Busch to Union Station- new pavement, safety features (est $3m)
4. General paving/striping downtown wide: $5-7M
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This really needs to be taken seriously. It’s a totally waste of money if the utility companies come in and do a shotty replacement with incompatible materials
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Unfortunately this commentary is all over my timeline from outsiders often. Also the commentary on various subreddits. We have to change how dead our downtown is. I’m a sunshine pumper on St. Louis but I can’t even sunshine pump that downtown is lively. It has some awesome things going for it but it lacks the people. It’s like we need the region just to wake up one day and start going again and it just hasn’t happened
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Ironically taken from a place that saw 6,894 visitors today.
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It’s a KC person so very well may be some hate mail. And I’m a big downtown guy, but we do have the “nobody goes there” attitude so…nobody goes! People pick the club with a line over the empty one.
But I see this commentary a lot from out of towners. And can’t totally disagree as a person living and working downtown.
I was once having a beer at Wellspent on a Friday evening a couple from NY came over after hearing me talk about SLU demo and land banking and said “I love the architecture, it is on the level of SoHo. But WHERE ARE THE PEOPLE! We walked from the Arch to here and didn’t see a single person.” I fought against her a little making the point that we have activity in our neighborhoods and downtown is up and down with activity and many other cities that I have experience with have similar issues in downtown activity including Cincy, Louisville, Houston, even the loop in Chicago when I was there. Not everything can be compared to NYC.
But it does make me sad and concerned that the dead downtown narrative is a little true in my experience and continues to perpetuate itself with locals and out of towners, even those who compliment all of our other awesome amenities.
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Foot traffic for the 3 downtown zips
63103 is well ahead of last year and even 2019.
63102 small decline can be attributed to cardinals drawing 600,000 less
63101- 2024 was a very light convention year as expected due to uncertainty about expansion construction when 2024 was booked few years ago. 2025 is already expected to be the biggest in 2 decades.
63103 is well ahead of last year and even 2019.
63102 small decline can be attributed to cardinals drawing 600,000 less
63101- 2024 was a very light convention year as expected due to uncertainty about expansion construction when 2024 was booked few years ago. 2025 is already expected to be the biggest in 2 decades.
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For downtown we have perception vs reality. Perception is what dominates the national conversation about DT STL.
Reality is what DB spends his time on, fighting the perception.
What wins out? What’s more important? I’d argue in the age of social media perception does…
Reality is what DB spends his time on, fighting the perception.
What wins out? What’s more important? I’d argue in the age of social media perception does…
Just got back from weekends in Indianapolis and Nashville and I still can't get over the level of performative policing they have in both places. Cops everywhere at all hours driving around, parked or gathered standing around. Compare that to St. Louis when you go hours downtown without seeing an officer.
In Indianapolis I was shocked at the level of activity around their police HQ. Cars coming and going at all hours, pedestrian traffic both civilian and uniformed. Now you can take it two ways but it was shocking when compared to how St. Louis' HQ on Olive continues to have the dead office building vibe around it.
In Indianapolis I was shocked at the level of activity around their police HQ. Cars coming and going at all hours, pedestrian traffic both civilian and uniformed. Now you can take it two ways but it was shocking when compared to how St. Louis' HQ on Olive continues to have the dead office building vibe around it.
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Problem with day time police viability is that it’s a waste of resources for the most part because nothing happens. sh*t happens between 1 and 5am and it will always happen and drive narrative despite flooding the zone during the day for visibility .
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What DB does it’s important - he is trying to change such perception with numbers. I think it is helpful. You’re going to have people that will fight tooth and nail no matter what against it (especially when it comes to crime) because some people are just stubborn and want St. Louis to be failing and affirm that things were “better back in the day” or “cities are liberal **** holes”.whitherSTL wrote: ↑Nov 17, 2024For downtown we have perception vs reality. Perception is what dominates the national conversation about DT STL.
Reality is what DB spends his time on, fighting the perception.
What wins out? What’s more important? I’d argue in the age of social media perception does…
DBs numbers show both the positives and negatives. The positive being that downtown has slowly reached its activity before COVID put a nail in a coffin. We are maybe reaching stability/neutral and can now work towards growth. The negative is that we already had a slow downtown pre-COVID compared to our peers. Our activity downtown has slowly declined for decades but especially as the retail and business started leaving vast vacancies post-recession. In my experience, our downtown was already having a hard time with street activity in 2018/19 before COVID. We need to far surpass even our pre-COVID activity to be a vibrant downtown.
It’s residential conversion and new residential builds for St. Louis. That’s the recipe downtown and we have done some of that last few years. Need a lot more. I’m positive on the outlook.
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I think its the city/county thing. I'm from Cincinnati. After Bengals games there are plenty of cops out directing traffic, etc. St Louis doesn't even have city cops doing this work for the most part. What's a city without a county? St louis city has too much ground to cover with not enough resources. That will change (things like the green line help) but we are in a difficult spot at the moment.dweebe wrote: ↑Nov 18, 2024Just got back from weekends in Indianapolis and Nashville and I still can't get over the level of performative policing they have in both places. Cops everywhere at all hours driving around, parked or gathered standing around. Compare that to St. Louis when you go hours downtown without seeing an officer.
In Indianapolis I was shocked at the level of activity around their police HQ. Cars coming and going at all hours, pedestrian traffic both civilian and uniformed. Now you can take it two ways but it was shocking when compared to how St. Louis' HQ on Olive continues to have the dead office building vibe around it.
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^ SLMPD covers 62 sq miles with 950 officers today, Kansas City covers 300 sq miles with 950
Officers today and Cincinnati covers 80 sq miles with 1000 officers.
Nobody can actually tell me how big SLMPD should be. We have a budgeted amount of 1225 but historically 100 or so were always just FTE for OT pay. City our size pop wise would require 715 officers.
Officers today and Cincinnati covers 80 sq miles with 1000 officers.
Nobody can actually tell me how big SLMPD should be. We have a budgeted amount of 1225 but historically 100 or so were always just FTE for OT pay. City our size pop wise would require 715 officers.