I agree. Pickleball is the fastest growing sport in US.STLinCHI wrote: ↑Oct 07, 2024The main room seems perfect for a full-on multi-court pickleball complex. Add in the yet-to-be-completed lower level skating rink and nightclub and I could see this working. The main room as a concert venue doesn't work because the floor is mostly press-down carpet tiles. The carpet would need to be removed for either concept. Removing the carpet would add to the acoustic issues, so additional sound deadening would be needed for a concert concept. Ceiling hanging panels could accomplish this.
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So devils advocate. I agree the space is ideal for indoor sports but it seems like the cost to maintain the building will require a significantly higher margin business model. Looking at organizations like Vetta they are built into the lowest cost construction as possible.
The indoor waterpark concept actually seems somewhat plausible to me but only if pair with a resort type hotel like Great Wolf Lodge. I think a location closer to Union Station or closer to Forest Park would be the preferred location (from a corporate perspective) but this would probably be acceptable. One major difficulty here would be the drill floor is not on a slab. There is space underneath that was the garage so flooding it with 1000s of gallons of water would be an engineering challenge.
The indoor waterpark concept actually seems somewhat plausible to me but only if pair with a resort type hotel like Great Wolf Lodge. I think a location closer to Union Station or closer to Forest Park would be the preferred location (from a corporate perspective) but this would probably be acceptable. One major difficulty here would be the drill floor is not on a slab. There is space underneath that was the garage so flooding it with 1000s of gallons of water would be an engineering challenge.
The problem with the Armory wasn't so much the existing use, but the fact that Green Street ran out of cash to build out the lower level and double the revenue. The building itself is difficult to program. Not sure how any of the proposed uses generates more revenue than what had been planned. Maybe a Great Wolf Lodge-type attraction, but then you're basically starting from scratch.
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Personally, I think a Great Wolf Lodge-type attraction would be a better fit on one of Union Station's surface parking lots.
Agree, also you pretty much need an alcohol license attached to the biz model one or another.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Oct 07, 2024So devils advocate. I agree the space is ideal for indoor sports but it seems like the cost to maintain the building will require a significantly higher margin business model. Looking at organizations like Vetta they are built into the lowest cost construction as possible.
I do think redevelopment of Armory into indoor ice rink(s) makes a lot of sense as a great asset for the city but I also think the reality of it happening is Armory reverts back to city/public ownership, city financing the build out with maybe a lease back for a private operator to claw back some of the investment (but allowing a certain amount of public use, free use, etc.). The investments to put in the mechanical aspects of installing and maintaining ice rinks would be substantial.
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Only way ice rink happens is if its coupled with additional uses (indoor soccer, etc) plus SLU brings back their D1 ice hockey program. Otherwise its a loss leader.
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^How SLU doesn't have a hockey program is a bit of a mystery to me.
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i do like the idea. The fact that there is currently no indoor rinks within the city makes it slightly more plausible. But its a simple fact that the margins on ice time probably wouldn't even support the rink infrustructure let alone the maintenance on the building at large. So it would have to be coupled with some other business with higher margins, or publicly subsidized which seems unlikely.dredger wrote: ↑Oct 07, 2024Agree, also you pretty much need an alcohol license attached to the biz model one or another.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Oct 07, 2024So devils advocate. I agree the space is ideal for indoor sports but it seems like the cost to maintain the building will require a significantly higher margin business model. Looking at organizations like Vetta they are built into the lowest cost construction as possible.
I do think redevelopment of Armory into indoor ice rink(s) makes a lot of sense as a great asset for the city but I also think the reality of it happening is Armory reverts back to city/public ownership, city financing the build out with maybe a lease back for a private operator to claw back some of the investment (but allowing a certain amount of public use, free use, etc.). The investments to put in the mechanical aspects of installing and maintaining ice rinks would be substantial.
If by some miracle this were to happen though I think it would instantly become one of the coolest indoor ice rinks in the country.
The problem with programing is simply a matter of access and adjacent development. as in there needs to be more of both, and i mean within Prospect Yards (between 40 and the RR tracks)
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Had one way back in the day, rolled up the D1 program in 1980 I think. Currently have a (club?) team in the ACHA - DII.
They had a pretty decent one in the 1970s but then the Ralston/Blues turmoil did them in. IIRC they have club hockey now.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Oct 08, 2024^How SLU doesn't have a hockey program is a bit of a mystery to me.
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It seems like a waste of money. Remember, you’ll likely need a boys and girls team. That’s roughly 50 athletes. They’ll need a dedicated facility that costs a ton to operate. Other than Lindenwood there may not be a single D-1 hockey team within driving distance, so you’re flying two teams to almost all away games. Are the students so hockey crazy that they’ll accept a new big fee tacked on to their bills to support hockey?
Not mention the concussion issue with hockey. Spend the money on more research or maybe helping the descendants of the people SLU enslaved.
Not mention the concussion issue with hockey. Spend the money on more research or maybe helping the descendants of the people SLU enslaved.
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I’m not necessarily opposed, I just don’t think SLU will do it.
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The pedestrian pathway between the Foundry and Armory really can't come soon enough.
Thinking further into the future, I'd love to see that future pedestrian pathway extended even further south, over the railyard to what would have been Iron Hill.
There is nothing there now, but it doesn't have to stay that way. A new Cardinal Glennon is actively being built across Chouteau, and a new Target is open across Grand.
Extending the Spring Ave. pedestrian pathway from Forest Park Ave. to Chouteau Ave. seems like a no-brainer when it comes to St. Louis infrastructure.
In addition to providing enhanced pedestrian access for the Foundry, Armory, and Iron Hill site, it could also go south of Chouteau and provide access to SLU Hospital while potentially spelling an end for the massive parking lots along Spring near SLU Hospital.
Thinking further into the future, I'd love to see that future pedestrian pathway extended even further south, over the railyard to what would have been Iron Hill.
There is nothing there now, but it doesn't have to stay that way. A new Cardinal Glennon is actively being built across Chouteau, and a new Target is open across Grand.
Extending the Spring Ave. pedestrian pathway from Forest Park Ave. to Chouteau Ave. seems like a no-brainer when it comes to St. Louis infrastructure.
In addition to providing enhanced pedestrian access for the Foundry, Armory, and Iron Hill site, it could also go south of Chouteau and provide access to SLU Hospital while potentially spelling an end for the massive parking lots along Spring near SLU Hospital.
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I would love to see SLU go in on hockey. I think it would be a successful draw. College sports produce good revenue but not profit, so they are always hard. St. Louis is one of the larger metros without major division 1 football, so I think there could be an appetite for more high level college sports.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Oct 08, 2024It seems like a waste of money. Remember, you’ll likely need a boys and girls team. That’s roughly 50 athletes. They’ll need a dedicated facility that costs a ton to operate. Other than Lindenwood there may not be a single D-1 hockey team within driving distance, so you’re flying two teams to almost all away games. Are the students so hockey crazy that they’ll accept a new big fee tacked on to their bills to support hockey?
Not mention the concussion issue with hockey. Spend the money on more research or maybe helping the descendants of the people SLU enslaved.
I think it would be cool to be an indoor practice rink for Blues, recreational uses, high school and college matches, and events. No idea on economics.
Also as an aside related to amateur hockey in StL - St. Louis is to host the Frozen Four next year. NCAA has leased out through 2028 for hosts. St. Louis should be an NCAA hub for its central location. I wonder if it would be possible to go all in on the event next year and pitch to the NCAA for St. Louis to be the Omaha of college hockey. People would think Minneapolis but schools would only agree to a place where no team would have clear home field advantage.
Back to the Armory - I don’t know what the demand is for smaller convention spaces but if you build out hotel, maybe that is a use? Some posters don’t think concerts would work bc of acoustics but I think that could be resolved. Armory reminds me of the inside of Salt Shed in Chicago as far as size and layout.
My last idea already exists in St. Charles - Chicken n Pickle. They have indoor courts and could build out the rest of their model on the surface lots. They have been expanding, so it appears the business is healthy. It would probably be the most natural fit of a type of business already existing out there.
Re: Chicken N Pickle…With TopGolf off to a pretty bad start in the City, I think it may be a hard sell for another large format entertainment user to come down to the Armory that has a STL metro suburban location already. Probably needs to be a first to market user.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Oct 08, 2024I would love to see SLU go in on hockey. I think it would be a successful draw. College sports produce good revenue but not profit, so they are always hard. St. Louis is one of the larger metros without major division 1 football, so I think there could be an appetite for more high level college sports.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Oct 08, 2024It seems like a waste of money. Remember, you’ll likely need a boys and girls team. That’s roughly 50 athletes. They’ll need a dedicated facility that costs a ton to operate. Other than Lindenwood there may not be a single D-1 hockey team within driving distance, so you’re flying two teams to almost all away games. Are the students so hockey crazy that they’ll accept a new big fee tacked on to their bills to support hockey?
Not mention the concussion issue with hockey. Spend the money on more research or maybe helping the descendants of the people SLU enslaved.
I think it would be cool to be an indoor practice rink for Blues, recreational uses, high school and college matches, and events. No idea on economics.
Also as an aside related to amateur hockey in StL - St. Louis is to host the Frozen Four next year. NCAA has leased out through 2028 for hosts. St. Louis should be an NCAA hub for its central location. I wonder if it would be possible to go all in on the event next year and pitch to the NCAA for St. Louis to be the Omaha of college hockey. People would think Minneapolis but schools would only agree to a place where no team would have clear home field advantage.
Back to the Armory - I don’t know what the demand is for smaller convention spaces but if you build out hotel, maybe that is a use? Some posters don’t think concerts would work bc of acoustics but I think that could be resolved. Armory reminds me of the inside of Salt Shed in Chicago as far as size and layout.
My last idea already exists in St. Charles - Chicken n Pickle. They have indoor courts and could build out the rest of their model on the surface lots. They have been expanding, so it appears the business is healthy. It would probably be the most natural fit of a type of business already existing out there.
I like the thought of sports facility (hockey or basketball/volleyball/soccer) but no way you can drive the revenue to pay for that building unless Hulse and partners (or lenders) took a huge loss on it via a short sale or foreclosure.
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Chicken n Pickle has a KC and Overland Park location which is very comparable to St Charles and StL. They also have multiple locations in Dallas suburbs and multiple coming soon in Denver suburbs. They have 4 or 5 coming soon and seem to be okay with expanding in a market with an existing location. Idk how St. Charles has done for them though. Armory and St. Charles are far enough way with enough population that the customer base is probably barely overlapping.kbshapiro wrote: ↑Oct 08, 2024Re: Chicken N Pickle…With TopGolf off to a pretty bad start in the City, I think it may be a hard sell for another large format entertainment user to come down to the Armory that has a STL metro suburban location already. Probably needs to be a first to market user.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Oct 08, 2024I would love to see SLU go in on hockey. I think it would be a successful draw. College sports produce good revenue but not profit, so they are always hard. St. Louis is one of the larger metros without major division 1 football, so I think there could be an appetite for more high level college sports.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Oct 08, 2024It seems like a waste of money. Remember, you’ll likely need a boys and girls team. That’s roughly 50 athletes. They’ll need a dedicated facility that costs a ton to operate. Other than Lindenwood there may not be a single D-1 hockey team within driving distance, so you’re flying two teams to almost all away games. Are the students so hockey crazy that they’ll accept a new big fee tacked on to their bills to support hockey?
Not mention the concussion issue with hockey. Spend the money on more research or maybe helping the descendants of the people SLU enslaved.
I think it would be cool to be an indoor practice rink for Blues, recreational uses, high school and college matches, and events. No idea on economics.
Also as an aside related to amateur hockey in StL - St. Louis is to host the Frozen Four next year. NCAA has leased out through 2028 for hosts. St. Louis should be an NCAA hub for its central location. I wonder if it would be possible to go all in on the event next year and pitch to the NCAA for St. Louis to be the Omaha of college hockey. People would think Minneapolis but schools would only agree to a place where no team would have clear home field advantage.
Back to the Armory - I don’t know what the demand is for smaller convention spaces but if you build out hotel, maybe that is a use? Some posters don’t think concerts would work bc of acoustics but I think that could be resolved. Armory reminds me of the inside of Salt Shed in Chicago as far as size and layout.
My last idea already exists in St. Charles - Chicken n Pickle. They have indoor courts and could build out the rest of their model on the surface lots. They have been expanding, so it appears the business is healthy. It would probably be the most natural fit of a type of business already existing out there.
I like the thought of sports facility (hockey or basketball/volleyball/soccer) but no way you can drive the revenue to pay for that building unless Hulse and partners (or lenders) took a huge loss on it via a short sale or foreclosure.
Also, is Top Golf not producing good numbers in the city? They are generally company wide posing lack luster numbers but I didn’t know StL city was an especially bad case?
KC is their original store and home market. Denver and Dallas are massive compared to STL…and growing. Not comps.
Yes, ran PlacerAI on both locations here and Chesterfield had double the traffic if I remember correctly and that was during the honeymoon phase of City location.
Also, I just said it may be a tough sell. Not saying it’s impossible or wont happen
Yes, ran PlacerAI on both locations here and Chesterfield had double the traffic if I remember correctly and that was during the honeymoon phase of City location.
Also, I just said it may be a tough sell. Not saying it’s impossible or wont happen
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C&P open to 2nd location here. Preference is Frontenac to Sunset Hills corridor.
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Chesterfield does double? Man, that’s surprising and disappointing. Makes it pretty hard to overcome when I argue for things to be in the City over West County.kbshapiro wrote: ↑Oct 09, 2024KC is their original store and home market. Denver and Dallas are massive compared to STL…and growing. Not comps.
Yes, ran PlacerAI on both locations here and Chesterfield had double the traffic if I remember correctly and that was during the honeymoon phase of City location.
Also, I just said it may be a tough sell. Not saying it’s impossible or wont happen
Also wasn’t doing a comp of Dallas and Denver, only KC - just saying they’ve done multiple locations in successful markets.
My only fight back is that Denver is not massive compared to STL. 2.9 million metro compared to 2.8.
Good point on Denver. Stand correct it. Hope I’m wrong and they do more here. It’s a great concept.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Oct 09, 2024Chesterfield does double? Man, that’s surprising and disappointing. Makes it pretty hard to overcome when I argue for things to be in the City over West County.kbshapiro wrote: ↑Oct 09, 2024KC is their original store and home market. Denver and Dallas are massive compared to STL…and growing. Not comps.
Yes, ran PlacerAI on both locations here and Chesterfield had double the traffic if I remember correctly and that was during the honeymoon phase of City location.
Also, I just said it may be a tough sell. Not saying it’s impossible or wont happen
Also wasn’t doing a comp of Dallas and Denver, only KC - just saying they’ve done multiple locations in successful markets.
My only fight back is that Denver is not massive compared to STL. 2.9 million metro compared to 2.8.
Maybe the Kirkwood RFP ground that was just put out would be perfect for C&P
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Armory/Steelcote or even around Delmar Loop or Manchester in the city would make more sense to me than that…Southwest county would have a little more market overlap…but maybe not if those Top Golf numbers are that bad for the City.whitherSTL wrote: ↑Oct 09, 2024C&P open to 2nd location here. Preference is Frontenac to Sunset Hills corridor.
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The owners from KC are well aware of the popularity of pickle in Des Peres, Kirkwood, Frontenac, Webster, Glendale and Sunset Hills. Sharp guys. They looked at Downtown West and backed away.
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I can see that being a strong demographic. I would certainly welcome the addition to the Kirkwood areawhitherSTL wrote: ↑Oct 09, 2024The owners from KC are well aware of the popularity of pickle in Des Peres, Kirkwood, Frontenac, Webster, Glendale and Sunset Hills. Sharp guys. They looked at Downtown West and backed away.
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If they were sharp they would know 900,000 people in metro STL live in Illinois.whitherSTL wrote: ↑Oct 09, 2024The owners from KC are well aware of the popularity of pickle in Des Peres, Kirkwood, Frontenac, Webster, Glendale and Sunset Hills. Sharp guys. They looked at Downtown West and backed away.