urbanSTL

I have never been to downtown Omaha. I have only been to Omaha writ large one time, and it was a business meeting in the suburbs. A perfectly nice, if ordinary and forgettable place. I assume that the bones of Downtown Omaha are a pale shadow of the bones of Downtown St. Louis. 

But I don't think St. Louis, or Chicago, or Oklahoma City, or Kansas City or Denver or Charlotte or Indianapolis etc etc should ever be in the habit of acting "holier than thou" about themselves relative to any other metropolitan area. All metro areas in the country are wherever they are in terms of size and built environment. Some are smaller, some are larger. Some are older. Some are younger. In 2024 it's about where you are right now and how fast you are moving and how much you are growing relative to your potential. You can be a smaller place that has fully utilized your current footprint and are grabbing for more, or you can be a bigger space with room to run. The frustrating thing about St. Louis is not that it is "better" than Omaha (it is), it's that Omaha is doing a lot with a little and St. Louis is doing a little with a lot. We could be Chicago with our bones. 

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Aug 27, 2024

JaneJacobsGhost wrote:Omaha has one of the fastest growing homeless populations in the country.

https://flatwaterfreepress.org/quick-hi ... ig-deeper/

And the height of buildings means absolutely nothing.

And Omaha has only one and half urban districts: Downtown and Midtown kinda. Driving into Downtown Omaha on Dodge or Farnham is like driving down Brentwood, Hanley or Manchester in the county.

They still have less than half the homeless population we do DT.

And of course height matters in a skyline. It’s not everything though.


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Anecdotally had more run ins with unhoused people in Old Market Omaha in one weekend than total DT StL but that is anecdotal. Lot more apparent tweaking DT Omaha. Maybe I just caught a rough weekend

The Mutual headquarters is something I’m jealous of. It shows investment and they do have their business community all in on downtown and it’s became contagious in their residential development downtown. That is something we lack

Now, as others have stated, nothing competes with their downtown. Urban fabric falls off and the suburbs are not the economic drivers to the level of StL suburbs. Their most celebrated “walkable” neighborhood outside downtown called Dundee is quaint but not on the activity level of CWE or south city. I would compare Dundee to Maplewood seriously

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

Aug 27, 2024

Yes, their big businesses are putting tons of money downtown and it’s paying off.

This cannot be overstated. In recent memory, only Stifel has been a legitimate large company to make a significant investment in downtown by buying their headquarters and expanding their workforce. More recently Larson and Build-a-Bear made large investments downtown but neither of them is exactly a massive needle mover. I do think it's kind of interesting that our downtown office market is in such a state that fairly small companies like Larson can buy a downtown tower and put their name on the top. I'm interested if any others will have that happen, two that stand out to me are the Gateway Tower and 1010 Market.

It would be great if a suburban company like Emerson (once their new lease in Clayton ends) or Post were to move downtown, or even one of the many regional bank offices that are based in Clayton (PNC, Regions, Chase, etc), but right now I really think Purina or Ameren moving deeper into downtown would be great. It's just so disappointing how these corporations see downtown. All it would take is a couple major relocations and we'd be back in business but nope. All we get to do is sit and watch as companies like Mutual of Omaha or Sherwin Williams build shiny new towers in their city's downtowns or even Salesforce regional consolidating operations in downtown Indianapolis. It's so frustrating.

Auggie wrote: ↑

Aug 27, 2024

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

Aug 27, 2024

Yes, their big businesses are putting tons of money downtown and it’s paying off.

This cannot be overstated. In recent memory, only Stifel has been a legitimate large company to make a significant investment in downtown by buying their headquarters and expanding their workforce. More recently Larson and Build-a-Bear made large investments downtown but neither of them is exactly a massive needle mover. I do think it's kind of interesting that our downtown office market is in such a state that fairly small companies like Larson can buy a downtown tower and put their name on the top. I'm interested if any others will have that happen, two that stand out to me are the Gateway Tower and 1010 Market.

It would be great if a suburban company like Emerson (once their new lease in Clayton ends) or Post were to move downtown, or even one of the many regional bank offices that are based in Clayton (PNC, Regions, Chase, etc), but right now I really think Purina or Ameren moving deeper into downtown would be great. It's just so disappointing how these corporations see downtown. All it would take is a couple major relocations and we'd be back in business but nope. All we get to do is sit and watch as companies like Mutual of Omaha or Sherwin Williams build shiny new towers in their city's downtowns or even Salesforce regional consolidating operations in downtown Indianapolis. It's so frustrating.

Agreed. We have the big business to bring downtown back to its fuller self if companies want to. There are several metros with smaller GDPs and less Fortune 1000s where a couple companies are investing in their downtowns enough to spark other investment.

Our downtown at this point needs loud momentum from the business community and we continue to get the opposite and threats of Chesterfield.

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

Aug 27, 2024

https://www.ksdk.com/article/entertainm ... ef27c870cd

Q in the Lou cancelled. We should have a renowned BBQ festival as a BBQ capital. Unfortunate. No idea whether the organizers had good plans or not

Really exhausting to see “public safety concerns” cited again about downtown. If you didn’t do good enough business in your Denver event, so this one gets cancelled, it’s disappointing to see that thrown in there as a reason. So, did Denver fail because of public safety? Kind of feels like everyone just throws that in for anything related to downtown.

Anyways, hope to see some type of BBQ event become a staple.

Such concerns that every single medium and large biz took part in biz dash by having their employees run 3.2 miles around downtown, sponsored a very successful Street Food Festival last weekend, the very successful taste of STL few weeks ago and dozen of other parades and major events in downtown. The organization that puts on Q in the Lou also cancelled yesterday their event in Dallas after poor ticket sales in Denver. Maybe since announcement of the event 4 weeks ago, they didn’t do any promo what so ever was the actual issue and that Four Seasons dropped out as sponsor 30 min before their press conference a month ago

It’s always easier to blame crime than own up to being broke.

I think of Omaha as kind of a proto-Indianapolis. Downtown benefits heavily from the regions unipolarity. The concentration of development, vibrancy, and just all the urban minded folks in one place gives it the "energy" vibe that we don't typically see in STL.

In terms of the Gene Lahey Mall vs. The Arch, apples and oranges. I will say in the use case as an urban park, the GLM has a serious edge over the Arch. Not only is it integrated very well, but it is extremely amenity dense. Walking through you get the sense that this is THE community meeting space. There is also a ton of diverse seating areas, IE benches, hammocks, firepit circles, picnic tables. The Arch is awesome but pretty sterile.

A better comparison would be to the Gateway Mall/City Garden. Fortunately we have plenty of space left to expand the Gateway Mall to better compete. The Brickline will eventually stitch the entire strip together between the Arch and City Park, hopefully the next decade we can create a push to bring the rest of the Gateway Mall up to this level of amenity. I would start with Aloe Plaza and the Serra Sculpture block personally

JaneJacobsGhost wrote:It’s always easier to blame crime than own up to being broke.

There is a pretty scientific link between being broke and increased crime.

But it’s frustrating to see people who only focus on crime and don’t bother taking about economic development.


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GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

Aug 27, 2024

I think of Omaha as kind of a proto-Indianapolis. Downtown benefits heavily from the regions unipolarity. The concentration of development, vibrancy, and just all the urban minded folks in one place gives it the "energy" vibe that we don't typically see in STL.

In terms of the Gene Lahey Mall vs. The Arch, apples and oranges. I will say in the use case as an urban park, the GLM has a serious edge over the Arch. Not only is it integrated very well, but it is extremely amenity dense. Walking through you get the sense that this is THE community meeting space. There is also a ton of diverse seating areas, IE benches, hammocks, firepit circles, picnic tables. The Arch is awesome but pretty sterile.

A better comparison would be to the Gateway Mall/City Garden. Fortunately we have plenty of space left to expand the Gateway Mall to better compete. The Brickline will eventually stitch the entire strip together between the Arch and City Park, hopefully the next decade we can create a push to bring the rest of the Gateway Mall up to this level of amenity. I would start with Aloe Plaza and the Serra Sculpture block personally

Agreed, it does have more amenities than Gateway Mall but that is because Gene Leahy is the city’s primary park, unlike having Forest Park.

I would like to see a plan for the Gateway Mall that fills in amenities and uses stretching all the way City Park. Gateway Mall is actually longer, so there is a lot of space to utilize and activate the spaces. We could have one of the best urban stretches in the country from City Park to the Arch if we could activate the parks and surround it with retail.

Omaha obviously just spent hundreds of millions of dollars and 5 years on their riverfront so I would expect it to be a superior space right now. My favorite part is their pedestrian bridge which is very popular and I continue to wait for an announcement that the Eads Bridge will be transformed to a pedestrian bridge. Its a no-brainer

Busy week for downtown….

1. 2 day bbq festival cancelled here (& in Dallas after a poor ticket sales in Denver)
https://www.firstalert4.com/2024/08/28/ ... utType=amp


2. Havanas is moving to CWE


3. The Passport Bar opening on Wash Ave
https://www.stlmag.com/dining/the-passp ... k-on-wash/

4. $169m- 415 apartment mansion house project

5. $19m- 52 apartment Washington Ave Project

6. $75m renovations of 6 landing buildings has now completed 4 and in those 4 90% of 120 units are leased

7. AHMs 2 new apartments buildings in DT West between 21 and 22nd street are now out for bid.

8. Blues at the Arch festival set an attendance record 2 week ago

9. Free concert at Kiener plaza tonight with an happy hour at 5:00pm

Havana's is moving to the Central West End!?

After reading an article, I understand the reasoning. Havana's is going to be pretty close to the Central West End MetroLink station... Might have to take a MetroLink adventure from downtown Clayton to Havana's on lunch sometime. 

Seems like downtown St. Louis is headed in the right direction. 

I believe city leadership can help itself by advocating for conversion the raised freeway from Wash Ave to Cass Ave to at grade Blvd.  That would be huge for near north St. Louis and Laclede's landing.   Just as a vision to remove the Market/Forest Parkway/I64 interchange mess outright with a more urban form is another win win.  City doesn't need freeway removed outright but a couple key relative minor changes would be a big plus 

Any tidbits on what Drury is going to do downtown?  Understand that they were looking at redoing/replacing their west downtown property (peachtree believe) and assume they still own/land banking on Laclede's Landing?  Talk about a St Louis region based corporation that can do some good downtown as well   Understand hotel biz is tough but nice if they go all in on a signature property.  

Not St. Louis related but I'm back in Indianapolis for school and saw they have a Burlington downtown now, and their TJ Maxx actually just got renovated. This one building has an Embassy Suites, Panera, Burlington, and Weber Grill in it. Then the neighboring building has the TJ Maxx. I just have to wonder when or if downtown STL will revive itself enough to be able to support a department store. Could RWX get a department store again if its redevelopment goes well?

support a department store
If and when the Railway AT&T Chemical are occupied?

chris fuller wrote: ↑

Aug 30, 2024

support a department store
If and when the Railway AT&T Chemical are occupied?

I'd hope. If what DB says is correct, 600 apartments is massive. Even at 2/3 occupied that's 400 more people at least downtown everyday. I'd like to see them go for a department store in the bottom floor or so as part of the redevelopment. But ofc I don't know anything about what the numbers end up looking like nor do I know what the owner is thinking.

In it's current state, there isn't much of a reason to do anything to the Eads because there is simply nothing worth walking across the bridge to access other than a mediocre casino.

In the medium term the Eads bridge should eventually be reduced to one lane in each direction with a wide cycletrack + ped walkway on the Arch side. Brickline + North Riverfront Trail could seamlessly link up to the Eads with a little bridge connecting HERE. On the East Side the MetroBikeLink Trail and MCT Schoolhouse Trail should be extended to connect with the bridge. Perhaps the cycle track on Front Street can be extended North to the McKinley Bridge which would create a nice loop. With these improvements I could see some pretty strong usage as the Eads would essentially become the connecting center of the three regional bike networks.

Brickline is supposed to be finished by 2030, Madison and St. Clair county have been crushing it on bike trails lately too so I could see their sides being done by then as well if the political will to extend into East St. Louis exists. This could all be done by 2030.

Long term the East Riverfront and East St. Louis needs to be developed. If we have 5,000 residents on the East Riverfront and another 10k in and around Downtown East St. Louis then there is definitely a case to be made to convert Eads into the car free linear park. Obviously more people in Downtown STL as well.

STLEnginerd wrote: ↑

Aug 29, 2024

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

Aug 28, 2024

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

Aug 27, 2024

I think of Omaha as kind of a proto-Indianapolis. Downtown benefits heavily from the regions unipolarity. The concentration of development, vibrancy, and just all the urban minded folks in one place gives it the "energy" vibe that we don't typically see in STL.

In terms of the Gene Lahey Mall vs. The Arch, apples and oranges. I will say in the use case as an urban park, the GLM has a serious edge over the Arch. Not only is it integrated very well, but it is extremely amenity dense. Walking through you get the sense that this is THE community meeting space. There is also a ton of diverse seating areas, IE benches, hammocks, firepit circles, picnic tables. The Arch is awesome but pretty sterile.

A better comparison would be to the Gateway Mall/City Garden. Fortunately we have plenty of space left to expand the Gateway Mall to better compete. The Brickline will eventually stitch the entire strip together between the Arch and City Park, hopefully the next decade we can create a push to bring the rest of the Gateway Mall up to this level of amenity. I would start with Aloe Plaza and the Serra Sculpture block personally

Agreed, it does have more amenities than Gateway Mall but that is because Gene Leahy is the city’s primary park, unlike having Forest Park.

I would like to see a plan for the Gateway Mall that fills in amenities and uses stretching all the way City Park. Gateway Mall is actually longer, so there is a lot of space to utilize and activate the spaces. We could have one of the best urban stretches in the country from City Park to the Arch if we could activate the parks and surround it with retail.

Omaha obviously just spent hundreds of millions of dollars and 5 years on their riverfront so I would expect it to be a superior space right now. My favorite part is their pedestrian bridge which is very popular and I continue to wait for an announcement that the Eads Bridge will be transformed to a pedestrian bridge. Its a no-brainer

Eads Bridge is 3000ft long.  Closing it for pedestrian only will simply insure it is never used for much of anything (see chain of rocks Bridge).  Given its traffic count i suspect you could go to one lane each direction AND potentially close it entirely periodically (maybe once a month?) to host a festival market and carny rides.

To be clear, yes, my idea for pedestrianize would include biking, festivals/events. I believe it would be popular if easily incorporated into the Arch grounds. At the very least, tourists would love it and it would make them wander over the rest of the grounds and to the landing. The Malcolm Martin park on the east side actually used to be quite nice (RIP geyser).

Omaha pedestrian bridge (3,000 ft) has nothing to walk to either (green space in between interstates) but it was busy. Louisville’s pedestrian bridge (2,500 ft) helped bring back an abandoned downtown on the Indiana side. The Purple People’s Bridge is 2,700 feet and made Newport on the Levee (opened along with the bridge) a popular entertainment district before sporting events in downtown Cincy. By the way, all these bridges are in the top 10 of things to do in these cities on trip advisor.

River cities have been doing this in their downtowns for a long time. None of these cities have an attraction - the arch - that would draw people to even just a viewpoint/lookout that StL has. Given Eads low traffic and lack of connection to the landing grid east of Memorial Dr, it is low hanging fruit in my opinion with the extensions of our greenways. The evidence in other cities has proven these pedestrian/cycling bridges to be very popular.

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

Aug 30, 2024

In it's current state, there isn't much of a reason to do anything to the Eads because there is simply nothing worth walking across the bridge to access other than a mediocre casino.

In the medium term the Eads bridge should eventually be reduced to one lane in each direction with a wide cycletrack + ped walkway on the Arch side. Brickline + North Riverfront Trail could seamlessly link up to the Eads with a little bridge connecting HERE. On the East Side the MetroBikeLink Trail and MCT Schoolhouse Trail should be extended to connect with the bridge. Perhaps the cycle track on Front Street can be extended North to the McKinley Bridge which would create a nice loop. With these improvements I could see some pretty strong usage as the Eads would essentially become the connecting center of the three regional bike networks.

Brickline is supposed to be finished by 2030, Madison and St. Clair county have been crushing it on bike trails lately too so I could see their sides being done by then as well if the political will to extend into East St. Louis exists. This could all be done by 2030.

Long term the East Riverfront and East St. Louis needs to be developed. If we have 5,000 residents on the East Riverfront and another 10k in and around Downtown East St. Louis then there is definitely a case to be made to convert Eads into the car free linear park. Obviously more people in Downtown STL as well.

Was just looking into the St. Clair County biking projects.

https://scctd.org/metrobikelink/

MetroBikeLink looks fantastic! I agree that it should be extended all the way to Eads Bridge. 

It would be sweet if Madison County, IL would get on board with some of the stuff that St. Clair County has been putting in. 

Between MetroBikeLink in St. Clair County, IL and the Dardenne Creek Blueway in St. Charles County, MO, I'd like to see similar projects in St. Louis city and St. Louis County. 

Food court at STL city hall?

few vendors...it was there pre covid.  there are close to 1500 people between City Hall/1500 Market that eat breakfast and Lunch 

https://www.cbre.com/press-releases/cbr ... n-st-louis

CBRE says that they've arranged 15 new leases at Peabody Plaza in the last 18 months, helping push the building's occupancy to 85%, up from 70% in 2020.

While I know many people don't like Peabody's location, it's really preforming well in the office market and I think will help stuff like Wainwright get converted to residential. I'm sure this building's good performance helps restaurants like Hooters stay in business even as TGI Fridays and Hardee's have closed in recent years.

It'd be nice to see the BJ, Post Dispatch, or one of the TV stations pick up this story like they always pick up when buildings' occupancy rates go down.