They're seeking zoning variances at the Board of Adjustment Aug 7 to turn its vacant retail space into 3 live-work units.
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The failure of stimulating retail in Hudson, Expo, Ocean Grill building, and up to Delmar near one of the most popular bus stops, two metrolink lines, one of the densest streets in St. Louis metro, at the entrance of the greatest city park in the US has been one of the more disappointing progressions in the city.quincunx wrote: ↑Jul 27, 2024They're seeking zoning variances at the Board of Adjustment Aug 7 to turn its vacant retail space into 3 live-work units.
I am baffled that a small market/grocery, pharmacy, or casual eateries see no value in these spaces. I really thought there would be more activity by now. Appears that Hudson has given up. There is not a realistically walkable grocery from this area with tons of young people. Millions of Forest Park visitors and no place for them to sit and eat on this side of the park? What gives.
These type of things frustrate me because where an area like this even exists in other cities (there are not many with park/transit/dense/walkable blocks as strong as this one), they are full of commercial activity.
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I think FPP really hurts that area. It’s effectively a highway separating the neighborhood from FP. It makes it feel so much less walkable.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote:The failure of stimulating retail in Hudson, Expo, Ocean Grill building, and up to Delmar near one of the most popular bus stops, two metrolink lines, one of the densest streets in St. Louis metro, at the entrance of the greatest city park in the US has been one of the more disappointing progressions in the city.quincunx wrote: ↑Jul 27, 2024They're seeking zoning variances at the Board of Adjustment Aug 7 to turn its vacant retail space into 3 live-work units.
I am baffled that a small market/grocery, pharmacy, or casual eateries see no value in these spaces. I really thought there would be more activity by now. Appears that Hudson has given up. There is not a realistically walkable grocery from this area with tons of young people. Millions of Forest Park visitors and no place for them to sit and eat on this side of the park? What gives.
These type of things frustrate me because where an area like this even exists in other cities (there are not many with park/transit/dense/walkable blocks as strong as this one), they are full of commercial activity.
Both FPP and that Lindell is 4 lanes wide there, walking to the park from Expo or Metrolink is an uncomfortable experience and (due to the long signals times that prioritize car traffic) often time consuming. Despite being in close proximity to transit, it's still an area designed for cars.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Jul 27, 2024I think FPP really hurts that area. It’s effectively a highway separating the neighborhood from FP. It makes it feel so much less walkable.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote:The failure of stimulating retail in Hudson, Expo, Ocean Grill building, and up to Delmar near one of the most popular bus stops, two metrolink lines, one of the densest streets in St. Louis metro, at the entrance of the greatest city park in the US has been one of the more disappointing progressions in the city.quincunx wrote: ↑Jul 27, 2024They're seeking zoning variances at the Board of Adjustment Aug 7 to turn its vacant retail space into 3 live-work units.
I am baffled that a small market/grocery, pharmacy, or casual eateries see no value in these spaces. I really thought there would be more activity by now. Appears that Hudson has given up. There is not a realistically walkable grocery from this area with tons of young people. Millions of Forest Park visitors and no place for them to sit and eat on this side of the park? What gives.
These type of things frustrate me because where an area like this even exists in other cities (there are not many with park/transit/dense/walkable blocks as strong as this one), they are full of commercial activity.
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Nice prefab elevated pedestrian walkway would be a great solution. Make it fancy or make it artistic!
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Agree with this._nomad_ wrote: ↑Jul 27, 2024Both FPP and that Lindell is 4 lanes wide there, walking to the park from Expo or Metrolink is an uncomfortable experience and (due to the long signals times that prioritize car traffic) often time consuming. Despite being in close proximity to transit, it's still an area designed for cars.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Jul 27, 2024I think FPP really hurts that area. It’s effectively a highway separating the neighborhood from FP. It makes it feel so much less walkable.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: The failure of stimulating retail in Hudson, Expo, Ocean Grill building, and up to Delmar near one of the most popular bus stops, two metrolink lines, one of the densest streets in St. Louis metro, at the entrance of the greatest city park in the US has been one of the more disappointing progressions in the city.
I am baffled that a small market/grocery, pharmacy, or casual eateries see no value in these spaces. I really thought there would be more activity by now. Appears that Hudson has given up. There is not a realistically walkable grocery from this area with tons of young people. Millions of Forest Park visitors and no place for them to sit and eat on this side of the park? What gives.
These type of things frustrate me because where an area like this even exists in other cities (there are not many with park/transit/dense/walkable blocks as strong as this one), they are full of commercial activity.
I understand the park is large so we have to have decent traffic flow around it but we really do cut off our park from its surroundings. It’s probably best connected to WashU and that is saying something considering the unabashed driving on Skinker.
Dogtown has only two ped bridge over an entire interstate. If you cross at Hampton, you literally cross interstate ramps. Same with Skinker and Kingshighway crosses.
Kingshighway barely has enough cross walks.
Forest Park Parkway/Debaliviere intersection is not pedestrian friendly at all. Needs a serious update. Union/Lindell same.
Yea, it’s bad. I can’t believe we ran two highways through the park. I-64 really was a mistake. Three large interchanges through the gem that is Forest Park.
Pedestrian walkways over major streets are rarely much more pleasant than crosswalks, the hassle of going up and over combined with the narrow caged in feeling of a walkway surrounded by the noise of traffic is not great. The real solution would be sinking FPP down to the level of the metro tracks and narrowing Lindell down to one lane each way.stlurbanist wrote: ↑Jul 27, 2024Nice prefab elevated pedestrian walkway would be a great solution. Make it fancy or make it artistic!
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My guess is that the mansion owners, WashU, and the city would love for Lindell to be two lanes. They have an issue of speeding on that road that they actually enforce. Reducing to two lanes would probably be easily popular and get done if it was proposed._nomad_ wrote: ↑Jul 27, 2024Pedestrian walkways over major streets are rarely much more pleasant than crosswalks, the hassle of going up and over combined with the narrow caged in feeling of a walkway surrounded by the noise of traffic is not great. The real solution would be sinking FPP down to the level of the metro tracks and narrowing Lindell down to one lane each way.stlurbanist wrote: ↑Jul 27, 2024Nice prefab elevated pedestrian walkway would be a great solution. Make it fancy or make it artistic!
FPP would need a more thorough redesign as it is a bypass without sidewalks or intersections and unconnected to the street grid. Your solution would work. I think on a simpler note, at least opening up Rosedale and Laurel to the parkway and creating new intersections could be a solution on the west half. I’m not sure what to do with the Union/Lindell interchange. The whole parkway was just poorly designed. There’s way too much going on at the interchange by Chaifetz too.
All while FPP, 40, and 44 run parallel to each other from Skinker to the east. Smh
It was proposeddelmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Jul 27, 2024if it was proposed.
viewtopic.php?p=219815#p219815
On June 4 Board of Adjustment meeting agenda.quincunx wrote: ↑Jul 27, 2024They're seeking zoning variances at the Board of Adjustment Aug 7 to turn its vacant retail space into 3 live-work units.
>I am baffled that a small market/grocery, pharmacy, or casual eateries see no value in these spaces. I really thought there would be more activity by now. Appears that Hudson has given up. There is not a realistically walkable grocery from this area with tons of young people. Millions of Forest Park visitors and no place for them to sit and eat on this side of the park? What gives.
Totally agree, with the density there now you would think you could support a small grocery and a few restaurants. I really doubt that Forest Park visitors would end walking that "far" regardless of how easy you made it, especially without a bunch of signage and marketing. I lived right next to Golden Gate Park for years, and only the truly adjacent (think attached) business districts get big lift from the park. Even in SF, the streets 3 to 4 blocks from the park aren't getting a lot of foot traffic from the park. Big parks have shockingly sharp borders from a visitor perspective from what I have seen.
Totally agree, with the density there now you would think you could support a small grocery and a few restaurants. I really doubt that Forest Park visitors would end walking that "far" regardless of how easy you made it, especially without a bunch of signage and marketing. I lived right next to Golden Gate Park for years, and only the truly adjacent (think attached) business districts get big lift from the park. Even in SF, the streets 3 to 4 blocks from the park aren't getting a lot of foot traffic from the park. Big parks have shockingly sharp borders from a visitor perspective from what I have seen.
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I know it’s close geographically to Forest Park, but cars going 60mph or more on FPP really separates this from the Park. It’s a shame. There is Park Place Market that opened right across the street from The Hudson, but I’m nervous of its survival post tornado.tztag wrote:>I am baffled that a small market/grocery, pharmacy, or casual eateries see no value in these spaces. I really thought there would be more activity by now. Appears that Hudson has given up. There is not a realistically walkable grocery from this area with tons of young people. Millions of Forest Park visitors and no place for them to sit and eat on this side of the park? What gives.
Totally agree, with the density there now you would think you could support a small grocery and a few restaurants. I really doubt that Forest Park visitors would end walking that "far" regardless of how easy you made it, especially without a bunch of signage and marketing. I lived right next to Golden Gate Park for years, and only the truly adjacent (think attached) business districts get big lift from the park. Even in SF, the streets 3 to 4 blocks from the park aren't getting a lot of foot traffic from the park. Big parks have shockingly sharp borders from a visitor perspective from what I have seen.
Debaliviere91 is correct, both Lindell and Forest Park Parkway are large barriers. Additionally, many of of "millions of visitors" are golfers, muny attendees, or zoo attendees, and wouldn't be walking to Debaliviere anyway.tztag wrote: ↑May 28, 2025>I am baffled that a small market/grocery, pharmacy, or casual eateries see no value in these spaces. I really thought there would be more activity by now. Appears that Hudson has given up. There is not a realistically walkable grocery from this area with tons of young people. Millions of Forest Park visitors and no place for them to sit and eat on this side of the park? What gives.
Totally agree, with the density there now you would think you could support a small grocery and a few restaurants. I really doubt that Forest Park visitors would end walking that "far" regardless of how easy you made it, especially without a bunch of signage and marketing. I lived right next to Golden Gate Park for years, and only the truly adjacent (think attached) business districts get big lift from the park. Even in SF, the streets 3 to 4 blocks from the park aren't getting a lot of foot traffic from the park. Big parks have shockingly sharp borders from a visitor perspective from what I have seen.
There is also still a negative perception about the type of foot traffic Debaliviere gets. It's seen as mostly poor, homeless, and generally not the type of people that potential grocers or pharmacies would see as good for business.
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I would also add I’m really nervous for the future of properties like the Hudson and the rest of Debaliviere Place. It’s such a high percentage of rentals, and anecdotally it seems like many people will be breaking leases and leaving. Plus, there is a huge percentage of international college students in the area, and that outlook is bleak. It’s such a shame because the neighborhood has had great momentum the past couple of years.
I imagine the rents of these commercial spaces have to be pretty high, I didn't like that strip mall on Debaliviere but they managed to fill up almost all of those spaces.
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Retail has flopped at the corner, hard to explain why, Got that Starbucks and it fell because of unrelated reasons.
I point to two issues - (1) As mentioned, FPP needs a complete redo in how is interacts with the streets. This intersection to enter and exit the park from there needs an overhaul, functionally and aesthetically; (2) The poor connection of the area to Delmar Loop and CWE. The fall off of Delmar east of Laurel that continues down Debaliviere makes it a ghost zone and not pleasing for people to go between the Delmar Loop to Forest Park leisurely and the Trolley, well had Trolleyed. The private streets and FPP keep Debaliviere, Forest Park and Euclid from being one continuous area which also makes the Debaliviere area too isolated.
Gonna take more work than big apt buildings I think. The streetcar extended through to the zoo, or connecting all these areas into one would have changed things but alas
I point to two issues - (1) As mentioned, FPP needs a complete redo in how is interacts with the streets. This intersection to enter and exit the park from there needs an overhaul, functionally and aesthetically; (2) The poor connection of the area to Delmar Loop and CWE. The fall off of Delmar east of Laurel that continues down Debaliviere makes it a ghost zone and not pleasing for people to go between the Delmar Loop to Forest Park leisurely and the Trolley, well had Trolleyed. The private streets and FPP keep Debaliviere, Forest Park and Euclid from being one continuous area which also makes the Debaliviere area too isolated.
Gonna take more work than big apt buildings I think. The streetcar extended through to the zoo, or connecting all these areas into one would have changed things but alas
The dead zone of the park along DeBaliviere between FPP and Lindell doesn't help either. The crossing at Lindell is bad too, needs a diet, raised crosswalks, refuges, a light cycle that adds another green just for north-south ped/bike crossing.
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I know this building had some damage, but are tenants displaced?
I forget; was this a Lux Living development? Any reason to fear that their notorious, uh, cheapness could have resulted in severe or even critical structural issues?
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Yes and yes.framer wrote:I forget; was this a Lux Living development? Any reason to fear that their notorious, uh, cheapness could have resulted in severe or even critical structural issues?
Expo did much better. It was obvious the build quality was superior as the two developments went up simultaneously.framer wrote: ↑May 31, 2025I forget; was this a Lux Living development? Any reason to fear that their notorious, uh, cheapness could have resulted in severe or even critical structural issues?
You really can see the drastic difference in build quality from the satellite views. The Hudson sustained significant damage including tearing off a chunk of the building and peeling off some of the roof. The most visible difference at the Expo seems to be some rearranged HVAC.quincunx wrote: ↑May 31, 2025Expo did much better. It was obvious the build quality was superior as the two developments went up simultaneously.framer wrote: ↑May 31, 2025I forget; was this a Lux Living development? Any reason to fear that their notorious, uh, cheapness could have resulted in severe or even critical structural issues?
Expo and Hudson Tornado Aerial 2025-05.jpg
Hudson
Expo
