Harvey was the poster who brought up race. My take is a little different. Don’t live in Dutchtown, it’s a total shitttholepdm_ad wrote: ↑Jul 02, 2024I'm not surprised that people are speculating about what happened but to suggest this was racially motivated is just dumb, as was mentioned.
The family says one person had a gun pointed at the groom the entire time while the 2nd was frisking people for wallets. There were several partiers who came outside when they heard the commotion and the gunman panicked.
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My goodness Downtown is not the place to be around the 4th of July. 20 people have been shot in the city since Thursday, mostly Downtown.
Such a shame because the fireworks show and concerts were well done.
Such a shame because the fireworks show and concerts were well done.
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Every problem with downtown, the state moving 600 jobs to Chesterfield, empty office buildings, desolate sidewalk activity, can fully or partially be attributed to the perception, or reality, that downtown is not safe.
So please keep posting your visions and dreams for downtown but realize nothing will change until there is a concerted effort to change the perception or the really that dt is unsafe.
So please keep posting your visions and dreams for downtown but realize nothing will change until there is a concerted effort to change the perception or the really that dt is unsafe.
First, this is a macro issue. Many downtowns across the US had the same types of “lawlessness”. Not to mention the teenagers across rural Missouri who celebrated similarly without issue. Kids are given guns, fireworks, and an iPhone to go viral. It’s the dystopian future that capitalism chose for us.
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At this point I don’t think we need to caveat every discussion around our region’s crime with the fact that other regions have crime too. I think everyone is well aware of that.addxb2 wrote:First, this is a macro issue. Many downtowns across the US had the same types of “lawlessness”. Not to mention the teenagers across rural Missouri who celebrated similarly without issue. Kids are given guns, fireworks, and an iPhone to go viral. It’s the dystopian future that capitalism chose for us.
Crime and perception of crime are top opportunities for our region and downtown and when over a dozen people get shot over a long weekend, the fact that crime happens in other downtowns doesn’t really matter to people.
I understand rural kids shoot off fireworks too, but I’m not familiar with a bunch of gun violence going along with that. What’s the comparison?
When speaking with St. Louisans you absolutely have to preface every conversation with that reminder. 25% of the average St. Louisans personality is complaining about crime that they think is unique to them.Debaliviere91 wrote:At this point I don’t think we need to caveat every discussion around our region’s crime with the fact that other regions have crime too. I think everyone is well aware of that.addxb2 wrote:First, this is a macro issue. Many downtowns across the US had the same types of “lawlessness”. Not to mention the teenagers across rural Missouri who celebrated similarly without issue. Kids are given guns, fireworks, and an iPhone to go viral. It’s the dystopian future that capitalism chose for us.
Crime and perception of crime are top opportunities for our region and downtown and when over a dozen people get shot over a long weekend, the fact that crime happens in other downtowns doesn’t really matter to people.
I understand rural kids shoot off fireworks too, but I’m not familiar with a bunch of gun violence going along with that. What’s the comparison?
You’re not going to see reports on rural gun violence because no one reports it. It’s not violence. Shooting guns in the air is a staple 4th of July activity.
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I was down there 4th of July night. It was a hellscape. But yes, keep deflecting.
Not deflecting. If anyone has any groundbreaking ideas to share, by all means… shoot. I’m just saying that it’s important to keep macro context at the front of every conversation.whitherSTL wrote:I was down there 4th of July night. It was a hellscape. But yes, keep deflecting.
I can expect the Mayor to resolve homelessness, an issue much larger than STL, but I’m going to be disappointed.
I can expect the Mayor to resolve health care, an issue much larger than STL, but I’m going to be disappointed.
I can expect the Mayor to resolve gun violence, an issue much larger than STL, but I’m going to be disappointed.
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A couple thoughts:
1) in the late 80’s early 90’s, Good Morning America set up their studio on Arch grounds during VP Fair. Kids all over STL were allowed to get hotel rooms downtown and party all weekend. These occurrences are unthinkable now. What’s changed?
2) Crime solution idea: use Rams money to boost police salaries and hire more police officers. How are the Mayor’s newly hired social workers helping crime?
1) in the late 80’s early 90’s, Good Morning America set up their studio on Arch grounds during VP Fair. Kids all over STL were allowed to get hotel rooms downtown and party all weekend. These occurrences are unthinkable now. What’s changed?
2) Crime solution idea: use Rams money to boost police salaries and hire more police officers. How are the Mayor’s newly hired social workers helping crime?
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addxb2 wrote:When speaking with St. Louisans you absolutely have to preface every conversation with that reminder. 25% of the average St. Louisans personality is complaining about crime that they think is unique to them.Debaliviere91 wrote:At this point I don’t think we need to caveat every discussion around our region’s crime with the fact that other regions have crime too. I think everyone is well aware of that.addxb2 wrote:First, this is a macro issue. Many downtowns across the US had the same types of “lawlessness”. Not to mention the teenagers across rural Missouri who celebrated similarly without issue. Kids are given guns, fireworks, and an iPhone to go viral. It’s the dystopian future that capitalism chose for us.
Crime and perception of crime are top opportunities for our region and downtown and when over a dozen people get shot over a long weekend, the fact that crime happens in other downtowns doesn’t really matter to people.
I understand rural kids shoot off fireworks too, but I’m not familiar with a bunch of gun violence going along with that. What’s the comparison?
You’re not going to see reports on rural gun violence because no one reports it. It’s not violence. Shooting guns in the air is a staple 4th of July activity.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
addxb2 wrote:When speaking with St. Louisans you absolutely have to preface every conversation with that reminder. 25% of the average St. Louisans personality is complaining about crime that they think is unique to them.Debaliviere91 wrote:At this point I don’t think we need to caveat every discussion around our region’s crime with the fact that other regions have crime too. I think everyone is well aware of that.addxb2 wrote:First, this is a macro issue. Many downtowns across the US had the same types of “lawlessness”. Not to mention the teenagers across rural Missouri who celebrated similarly without issue. Kids are given guns, fireworks, and an iPhone to go viral. It’s the dystopian future that capitalism chose for us.
Crime and perception of crime are top opportunities for our region and downtown and when over a dozen people get shot over a long weekend, the fact that crime happens in other downtowns doesn’t really matter to people.
I understand rural kids shoot off fireworks too, but I’m not familiar with a bunch of gun violence going along with that. What’s the comparison?
You’re not going to see reports on rural gun violence because no one reports it. It’s not violence. Shooting guns in the air is a staple 4th of July activity.
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Other than a few knuckle draggers, everyone on this forum understands crime happens in other places. Again, we don’t need to flatten every discussion around our crime issues by calling out that other cities have crime.addxb2 wrote:
Was none of the murdering downtown back then?whitherSTL wrote: ↑Jul 08, 20241) in the late 80’s early 90’s, Good Morning America set up their studio on Arch grounds during VP Fair. Kids all over STL were allowed to get hotel rooms downtown and party all weekend. These occurrences are unthinkable now. What’s changed?
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It’s objectively dumb to try to claim we are worse off crime wise now than the terribly violent 80’s and 90’s, the data is clear as you’ve pointed out. We’ve made a lot of progress and we’ve got a long ways to go.quincunx wrote:Was none of the murdering downtown back then?whitherSTL wrote: ↑Jul 08, 20241) in the late 80’s early 90’s, Good Morning America set up their studio on Arch grounds during VP Fair. Kids all over STL were allowed to get hotel rooms downtown and party all weekend. These occurrences are unthinkable now. What’s changed?
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What changed...social media and gun laws are the two big ones. More guns and more "reasons" to use them. Demographics have also changed--boomers, the largest generation, were in their peak working years numbers-wise in 80s-90s meaning a larger police force, etc. A smaller working-age population means ewer workers eligible for those (or any) jobs. This is evident in nearly every high-stakes, people-facing field, e.g., nursing. That basic fact combined with police salaries that have not kept pace with either inflation or salary/wage growth in other fields means fewer people able or willing to work law enforcement jobs. Raising wages (which the City has done significantly in the most recent CBA) may help somewhat, but not if every other PD and every other competing job field are also raising wages. The Mayor's social worker strategy recognizes this reality, as well as the increasing prevalence of mental illness everywhere, and attempts to deal with it accordingly. Perhaps this strategy will prove ineffective (LCSWs face similar compensation pressures as police, for example), or the administration will manage it poorly, but it makes sense to try it.whitherSTL wrote: ↑Jul 08, 2024A couple thoughts:
1) in the late 80’s early 90’s, Good Morning America set up their studio on Arch grounds during VP Fair. Kids all over STL were allowed to get hotel rooms downtown and party all weekend. These occurrences are unthinkable now. What’s changed?
2) Crime solution idea: use Rams money to boost police salaries and hire more police officers. How are the Mayor’s newly hired social workers helping crime?
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Read similar stories about Cincy and mobs of teens fighting in the streets, driven there by social media challenges. Wondering if that is why social media was listed above.
The far left and far right are getting media attention but not helping solve any issues from my perspective. We need more effective policing, tougher gun laws and I do think we need more police presence. But those won't prevent the children from making the bad choices to begin with. We need to face this from multiple avenue including increasing education and getting parents involved in their children's lives. Everyone touting protect the children and yelling about what their children are being taught in school should maybe focus a little more on where the harm is occurring. I know it is a different time with technology, but it is so easy for idle hands to get involved in bad ideas today.
The far left and far right are getting media attention but not helping solve any issues from my perspective. We need more effective policing, tougher gun laws and I do think we need more police presence. But those won't prevent the children from making the bad choices to begin with. We need to face this from multiple avenue including increasing education and getting parents involved in their children's lives. Everyone touting protect the children and yelling about what their children are being taught in school should maybe focus a little more on where the harm is occurring. I know it is a different time with technology, but it is so easy for idle hands to get involved in bad ideas today.
I can't point to a specific study linking social media use to violence, but I haven't looked for it either. I included it as a factor because I've heard from multiple LEOs over the years, including former chief Sam Dotson and former CA Kim Gardner as well as the district captains and public relations officers at Boulevard Heights and Holly Hills NIA meetings, that disputes that historically may have produced a fist or knife fight at the worst, now involve guns, and are almost always provoked or escalated by social media activity that then manifests IRL. Could just be the LEO party line unsupported by statistical evidence, but it makes perfect sense to me given the way Social Media has eroded sociability and mental health generally, especially in adolescents (both phenomena well-documented at this point).
Agree that most of the culture war horseshit that occupies elected officials' and internet keyboard warriors' time only serve to distract from the core issues, namely overly permissive gun laws, economic deprivation, and the aforementioned social media brain rot. These three things are tremendously profitable for the status quo ruling class so have effectively been eliminated as contestable political subjects. Yes, you can b**** about all three on the internet, as I'm doing now, but neither political party has any real intention to actually address them, even if they may occasionally appear in "official" party platforms.
Agree that most of the culture war horseshit that occupies elected officials' and internet keyboard warriors' time only serve to distract from the core issues, namely overly permissive gun laws, economic deprivation, and the aforementioned social media brain rot. These three things are tremendously profitable for the status quo ruling class so have effectively been eliminated as contestable political subjects. Yes, you can b**** about all three on the internet, as I'm doing now, but neither political party has any real intention to actually address them, even if they may occasionally appear in "official" party platforms.
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As violent crime is dropping, shouldn't the question be why is it dropping? (More and more cities are returning to pre-pandemic levels of homicide, for example, and quite a few are doing even better than that.)
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I think it’s more so a factor of returning to pre COVID norms after a substantial spike in violent crime during that time period. Thats playing out in St Louis and more broadly.STLrainbow wrote:As violent crime is dropping, shouldn't the question be why is it dropping? (More and more cities are returning to pre-pandemic levels of homicide, for example, and quite a few are doing even better than that.)
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That’s not true at all, 2023 raw total and per 100,000 violent crime number was lowest going back to at least 1985 (and more likely all the way back into the 60s).Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Jul 08, 2024I think it’s more so a factor of returning to pre COVID norms after a substantial spike in violent crime during that time period. Thats playing out in St Louis and more broadly.STLrainbow wrote:As violent crime is dropping, shouldn't the question be why is it dropping? (More and more cities are returning to pre-pandemic levels of homicide, for example, and quite a few are doing even better than that.)
We are at 85 homicides vs 89 at this point last year
May wasn’t great but since it’s been pretty good relatively speaking
May wasn’t great but since it’s been pretty good relatively speaking
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dbInSouthCity wrote:That’s not true at all, 2023 raw total and per 100,000 violent crime number was lowest going back to at least 1985 (and more likely all the way back into the 60s).Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Jul 08, 2024I think it’s more so a factor of returning to pre COVID norms after a substantial spike in violent crime during that time period. Thats playing out in St Louis and more broadly.STLrainbow wrote:As violent crime is dropping, shouldn't the question be why is it dropping? (More and more cities are returning to pre-pandemic levels of homicide, for example, and quite a few are doing even better than that.)
dbInSouthCity wrote:That’s not true at all, 2023 raw total and per 100,000 violent crime number was lowest going back to at least 1985 (and more likely all the way back into the 60s).Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Jul 08, 2024I think it’s more so a factor of returning to pre COVID norms after a substantial spike in violent crime during that time period. Thats playing out in St Louis and more broadly.STLrainbow wrote:As violent crime is dropping, shouldn't the question be why is it dropping? (More and more cities are returning to pre-pandemic levels of homicide, for example, and quite a few are doing even better than that.)
dbInSouthCity wrote:That’s not true at all, 2023 raw total and per 100,000 violent crime number was lowest going back to at least 1985 (and more likely all the way back into the 60s).Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Jul 08, 2024I think it’s more so a factor of returning to pre COVID norms after a substantial spike in violent crime during that time period. Thats playing out in St Louis and more broadly.STLrainbow wrote:As violent crime is dropping, shouldn't the question be why is it dropping? (More and more cities are returning to pre-pandemic levels of homicide, for example, and quite a few are doing even better than that.)
I’m more so referring to national numbers. The reset from the social unrests around COVID are pretty clearly the biggest factor driving YOY declines in ‘23.dbInSouthCity wrote:That’s not true at all, 2023 raw total and per 100,000 violent crime number was lowest going back to at least 1985 (and more likely all the way back into the 60s).Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Jul 08, 2024I think it’s more so a factor of returning to pre COVID norms after a substantial spike in violent crime during that time period. Thats playing out in St Louis and more broadly.STLrainbow wrote:As violent crime is dropping, shouldn't the question be why is it dropping? (More and more cities are returning to pre-pandemic levels of homicide, for example, and quite a few are doing even better than that.)
That’s also a huge factor in St Louis and you can see that in the numbers you posted. There are certainly other factors like getting guns off the street and I would imagine solving some of the Kia related thefts (if those are included in the robbery statistics).
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A couple of observations:
1) Gun related crime continues to be really challenging.
2) the recovery from the Hyundai/Kia theft epidemic really helps our numbers.
3) What could be driving the substantial drop in felony theft vs a flat change in misdemeanor theft?
1) Gun related crime continues to be really challenging.
2) the recovery from the Hyundai/Kia theft epidemic really helps our numbers.
3) What could be driving the substantial drop in felony theft vs a flat change in misdemeanor theft?