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PostJun 22, 2024#5526

^ In my cynical mind. I chalk it up to DeWitt/Cordish desiring one, and only on thing and that is the highest rate of return possible utilizing other people money and as part of the 1% crowd can sit on things for another generation or two.   Give DeWitt generation or two and they will have the same number of world series titles in a couple of decades as they do now.   

I don't buy into the Feds interest rate prevents development narrative.   Way to much private equity and dollars out there and the fact that my Dad's generation somehow made things work with double digit interest rates

The only saving grace - properties like that Cupple wedge next door and the fact that BPV hasn't actively pursued more nearby properties as far as I know.     

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PostJun 22, 2024#5527

dredger wrote:
Jun 22, 2024
^ In my cynical mind. I chalk it up to DeWitt/Cordish desiring one, and only on thing and that is the highest rate of return possible utilizing other people money and as part of the 1% crowd can sit on things for another generation or two.   Give DeWitt generation or two and they will have the same number of world series titles in a couple of decades as they do now.   

I don't buy into the Feds interest rate prevents development narrative.   Way to much private equity and dollars out there and the fact that my Dad's generation somehow made things work with double digit interest rates

The only saving grace - properties like that Cupple wedge next door and the fact that BPV hasn't actively pursued more nearby properties as far as I know.     
Typical PE return expectations for a ball park village type project are high teens or low twenties.  The only way to return high teens is to sell immediately after stabilization (think time value of money).   Sales price is largely driven by interest rates.  The lower the rates the higher the sales price and vice versa.  PE isn't going to invest in a speculative real  estate project when it can buy recently built distressed assets for 50% on the dollar unless the get the aforementioned return.  Especially not in STL.  Unfortunately the financialization of our economy over the last 40 years has changed the game.   

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PostJun 22, 2024#5528

^ I get what your saying on a speculative deal or building without tenants.  Can certainly understand residential where you have a pretty reasonable understanding of the local market price point and demand vs the cost & financing.  

However, Rawlings was not or what I would not call a speculative deal.   I see the key word in your whole explanation is expectation of return.   I have no clue and complete speculation on my part but maybe Rawlings came in at numbers giving them 13-14% and as you say Cordish is expecting high teens to low twenties, 19-21%.   At end of day business between to parties is a  negotiation and there is a lot of businesses out there that deal with single digit return on investments.    

In my simple mind having a tenant like Rawlings, an established client with its own baseball history, in a development called Ballpark Villlage next to a storied baseball franchise is worth coming off a few percentages.   But once again, complete speculation on my part where the parties where at.  I certainly don't have the money to walk the talk.  Heck, i might be able to get a decent seat for a few of the game days but that is about it.   

So I stand by my ground that DeWitt/Cordish have the best property to be had in the St Louis region and at end of the day they will milk every penny out of it as they can or let things sit empty because they can..... nothing more nothing less   

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PostJun 22, 2024#5529

Count me among those who are deeply disappointed with the slow progress on Ballpark Village and several apparent lost-opportunities. 

That being said, I really appreciate hearing STLAPTS's input on these things, as they present an insider's perspective that we "civilians" just don't get. Bankers, developers, and investors have to live in the real world of numbers, rather than mere wishful thinking and SymCity-type  dreams of the perfect city. 

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PostJun 22, 2024#5530

How many employees roughly do Rawlings have out in Westport?

The frustration for me is two fold. The business community haven't really embraced it, but it doesn't sound like they have really been given much incentive to come on board either.

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PostJun 24, 2024#5531

Here's another thought, and purely speculative... A major issue with BPV, and other sports-related developments in MO, has been and still is sports gambling. All pro teams look at gambling as a new revenue source, first from advertising, second from hosting wagering at their venues. BPV would be a perfect place for an off-track style venue for people to drop some money on a Cards game prior to the first pitch, as well as other games. 

I think it's highly probable that BPV Phase 3 would be underway already if sports gambling was legal in MO, bringing in a new revenue stream that would supplement other site-related revenues. With that, and pure theory: it's possible that its recent failure in the General Assembly compelled the developers to raise their requested rents for office space, e.g. Rawlings, pushing costs above what they would consider paying while furthering a development whose own revenues would be near constant. Therefore: No gaming, then higher rents; rents too high, so Rawlings goes to Westport. 

Looking ahead, I do see the biggest impetus to Phase 3's start being a drop in interest rates, lowering loan terms as well as raw materials costs. Once the FOMC lowers rates at least 50bps, I'd expect to hear news on Phase 3 shortly thereafter. If the State can get sports gambling, then I'd be a whole lot more confident. Plus, when considering the potential exodus of both the Chiefs and Royals from KC MO to KC KS, any new revenue streams to support new facilities development is now top of the conversation statewide. 

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PostJun 24, 2024#5532

^I think this is a very rosy view to think the Cardinals would lower rents with gaming money pouring in.  With additional headcount may even raise it for retail. 

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PostJun 24, 2024#5533

The Cardinals are very clearly part of the spearheaded effort to bring sports gambling to Missouri, and I believe they've explicitly said that they envision gambling as part of the future of BPV. 

I think that they will probably get their way in Nov. '24, though we'll have to see. It's going to be on the Missouri ballot, along with some other significant items (POTUS, abortion, minimum wage + min. sick leave, casino at the Lake of the Ozarks, etc.). 

If gambling passes, I wonder if the Cardinals finally announce plans for a new phase in 2025. 

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PostJun 24, 2024#5534

I sincerely hope we vote down any measure that includes video poker/arcade gambling machines. 

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PostJun 24, 2024#5535

If I remember correctly, those are not going to be on the ballot this Nov. 

There is a Missouri Republican -- Denny Hoskins, Warrensburg -- who opposes the sports gambling bill that is going to reach the Nov. '24 ballot as a citizen-led initiative because it doesn't carry any language about those.

The representative wants them regulated and expanded.

That said, you can easily find them at gas stations in St. Louis city. They're already around, and I don't see where anything is being done about them. 

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PostJun 25, 2024#5536

Yeah, I’ve seen them regularly as well.

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PostJun 25, 2024#5537

More gambling, whipee.

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PostJun 25, 2024#5538

RockChalkSTL wrote:
Jun 24, 2024
That said, you can easily find them at gas stations in St. Louis city. They're already around, and I don't see where anything is being done about them. 
Yet another way to mine wealth from our commutes at a gas stations. And we're told gas is too expensive.  I guess it could give people something to do while filling up their electric car in the future. 

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PostJun 25, 2024#5539

Another issue to consider would be the uncertainty surrounding the Bally's fiasco and a long-term TV contract. Not sure if this impacts their decisions with respect to BPV but this definitely (obviously) impacts the product that can be put on the field.

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PostJun 25, 2024#5540

pdm_ad wrote:
Jun 25, 2024
Not sure if this impacts their decisions with respect to BPV but this definitely (obviously) impacts the product that can be put on the field.
You could work in PR for the Cardinals shoveling bs like this

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PostJun 25, 2024#5541

I doubt very very much doubt that MO sports gambling and or even a better  TV contract will push BPV one way or another.  BPV is a standalone real estate development as far as I know that so happens to include DeWitt family piggy backing off the Cardinal Franchise as well as maybe Cardinals property from old stadium (not sure on the actual property ownership itself) .    So not sure why they would change there position on external because it is pretty obvious in my simple financial mind that BPV desires a high rate of return.   Maybe another way to put it, wouldn't Cardinals want the extra TV money, Cordish want the real estate (BPV) upside and both want the upside of sports gambling, a trivecta of return.  

What I would love to see and or probably a great master thesis for a business/economic student is comparing Cordish KC development vs BPV development to see if by Cordish by building out more of KC they gained more versus a later BPV build out.  Yes, I know not exactly oranges to oranges but while there might not be much cost for having an empty lot sit for a premium spot it is also a lost opportunity, assume more so on residential.   In other words, or they kicking themselves when interest rates were low?

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PostJun 25, 2024#5542

JaneJacobsGhost wrote:
Jun 25, 2024
pdm_ad wrote:
Jun 25, 2024
Not sure if this impacts their decisions with respect to BPV but this definitely (obviously) impacts the product that can be put on the field.
You could work in PR for the Cardinals shoveling bs like this
Thanks, I'll add you as a reference on my Cardinals PR application. Wish me luck!

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PostJun 25, 2024#5543

The Dewitt/Mozeliak hand wringing, woe-is-us revenue statements are ridiculous.  They announced a few weeks ago during the telecast (rough stretch) that ~36000 people was the lowest Saturday attendance since Busch 3 opened.  That number trounces half the league.  And its the lowest. Ever.  In the 18 year history of the current stadium.  We were really good in Busch 2 and had McGwire show before that.  They have never been hurting.  Revenue generation never an issue.   

Yes big money is in the TV deal.  Bally bungled their app rollout and commercialization, cable deal, etc.  Someone, after this temporary fix is over, will always pay the Cards to be broadcast.  Cardinals Nation is huge.  This "uncertainty" they whine about is a 2 year glitch in the Matrix and one that should only affect their profit margin, not the product on the field.  
  

PostJun 25, 2024#5544

I propose that to get public subsidies of any type, sports teams must publicly share their financial statements. 

Discuss.

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PostJun 26, 2024#5545

^Let's go one step further: to get public subsidies they must sell a commensurate stake in the team to the entity from which they get the support. The stadium is far from the full value of the team, but the team is pretty close to the full value of the stadium, so let's say if the stadium is fully publicly funded the venue owners get a fifty percent stake in the team and adjust accordingly. This wouldn't necessarily prevent a team from moving, but it would at the last guarantee a revenue stream from the move. (I'd be a whole lot happier with the Rams move if we got half of all of Stan's profits from the team. Sure, we can put our team in the LA market if that pays better and helps to fund education here, for instance.)

PostJun 26, 2024#5546

And we could sell that stake if we chose.

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PostJun 26, 2024#5547

But there in lies the catch 22, right? If they sell a stake to get funds that mechanism is available in banking/PE already. And they only need put up the collateral, whether team or property rather than sell it. So your proposal isn’t likely palatable. The idea of making them open their books to justify the “NEED” for public help means, in my view, they will never ask. Stan had to pay +$900m because the other owners got really itchy when their finances got subpoenaed.

These team owners relish keeping their private ownership just that, private.

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PostJun 26, 2024#5548

The only way a team would EVER give up an ownership stake in order to receive public funds would be if every viable market locked arms in solidarity for the same terms.  In a free market they will always have a sword of Damocles to drop if they want to.

In fact the even if an owner WANTED to sell his team to a public entity I don't think its wild speculation to say the other owners would block it so this whole discussion is moot.

The real question will always be is what tangible benefit does have a sports franchise in any particular league have to a particular metro and if its stadium funding can you account for a benefit  of having a stadium beyond what the team brings to it (concerts, other leagues etc.)  From a purely dollars a cent perspective i believe the current trends are well out of bed with what makes financial sense for the metros and they SHOULD in many cases be rejecting the exorbitant terms that amount to giveaways to private entities.

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PostJun 27, 2024#5549

Oh, I'm not saying the owners would like my proposal. They wouldn't. But I'm pretty much completely opposed to public financing of stadiums at this point otherwise. That'd be about the only reason I'd vote in favor of it. They have absolutely no need of public money.

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PostJun 28, 2024#5550

^Which is exactly why i think the "make your books public to get public money" rule would have the same chilling effect. 

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