Why can't we have basketball and tennis/pickleball courts along riverfront?
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This and I like the other suggestions. The Eads would be a perfect place to host festivals, art fairs and performances. It would naturally attract vendors and street performers if it became a bridge park/pedway and we could utilize it to host events that would attract people downtown.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Jun 05, 2024couple things. i have occasionally wondered if the appeal of clayton is the fact that there is so much executive level housing adjacent to downtown. Looking at Downtown St. Louis there is no comparable housing option adjacent to downtown. I realize there is a reasonable argument that decries the segregation of classes through gated communities etc. but from a pragmatic perspective i wonder if an elite gated community (perhaps on the near north riverfront between say O-'Fallon and Mullanphy) might motivate business owners to headquarter in downtown. I'm not pro elitist, but i do recognize the decision makers often are and given i don't expect us to be able to overthrow an entrenched oligarchy i do wonder if there is a low impact way to strategically cater to it for the benefit of St. Louis as a whole.
Secondly regarding the Eads Bridge. I would really like to see it closed one weekend a month from May to Sept and host a linear festival/market literally on the bridge. Artist and crafts, food vendors etc. If you can get carnival rides on the deck then that'd be awesome. They do camel rides at Grants Farm, as a throwback to the opening of the bridge, are elephant rides ever a thing...?
I think it would make the landing and wash ave more vibrant again. It would attract people downtown/keep them around for longer without detracting from the businesses already down there.
To the “executive housing”, I think that the bottle district was in part going to serve that “luxury condo” demand and keep professionals downtown. Obviously that never happened. There are still lots of parking lots between MLK bridge and Musial that could be used for luxury mid rise/high rises. Public housing close in the downtown border for the north so Idk how much will ever go in around just north of Wash Ave (there’s a lot of empty land that could theoretically attract residents but probably would not).
On the right field side of Busch between Broadway and 44 though is where I would go as a developer for luxury. Views of Arch and stadium. If the Cardinals would have ever finished the left field side when they originally thought, I wonder if they would have started developing over there by now. The Keiner garage lots and “Stadium garages” also be prime. We have so many plots that could be developed and give us a super vibrant downtown.
I’m hoping for a future where at least 20 story apartments and condos stand on these lots, along with redevelopment of At&t, Railway, Millenium, Chemical, and whatever the heck is happening between Pine and Washington next to the Arch.
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Yes it would. Is that on the park space with the eternal flame or one more block west?dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jun 05, 2024Wouldn’t this be something
Edit: never mind, see that is old courthouse, not Civil. BoA to right. So mall in between 20th and 11th street.
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Image is the Peabody building on the left and Spire on the rightTheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑Jun 05, 2024Yes it would. Is that on the park space with the eternal flame or one more block west?dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jun 05, 2024Wouldn’t this be something
Edit: never mind, see that is old courthouse, not Civil. BoA to right. So mall in between 20th and 11th street.
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Hard to unsee that center building as the civil courts building, but I'm seeing it now.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jun 05, 2024Image is the Peabody building on the left and Spire on the rightTheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑Jun 05, 2024Yes it would. Is that on the park space with the eternal flame or one more block west?dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jun 05, 2024Wouldn’t this be something
Edit: never mind, see that is old courthouse, not Civil. BoA to right. So mall in between 20th and 11th street.
My personal preference: Tear down Peabody and you can make the greenspace you'll never get on those roofs.
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i could be ok with tearing down Peabody after 909 Chestnut is occupied and at least one of the keiner garages is demoed for a new tower.verdantruins wrote: ↑Jun 05, 2024Hard to unsee that center building as the civil courts building, but I'm seeing it now.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jun 05, 2024Image is the Peabody building on the left and Spire on the rightTheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑Jun 05, 2024
Yes it would. Is that on the park space with the eternal flame or one more block west?
Edit: never mind, see that is old courthouse, not Civil. BoA to right. So mall in between 20th and 11th street.
My personal preference: Tear down Peabody and you can make the greenspace you'll never get on those roofs.
The advantage Detroit has is that they have 3 billionaire+ stakeholders that are willing to dump cash into Downtown & Corktown without needing market rate returns or attracting other investors... Dan Gilbert, Mike Ilitch, and Ford.
Dan Gilbert has done some amazing projects in Downtown Detroit through his Bedrock Development, but they are largely self funded. As long as they work well enough to pay debt service, and he can make some money back they are good to go. The Ford Corktown project, Michigan Central, was $1 billion.
Attracting similar equity in St. Louis requires finding outside investor looking for a 16% return, so for a big project you have to a) get to a 16% return, b) convince someone most likely from outside of St. Louis to invest $10 to $20 million in Downtown despite all the bad press, low regional growth, etc.
By comparison cost estimates for the St. Louis MLS stadium are about $500M, largely self-funded. So, imagine if St. Louis had three Taylor families each doing multiple projects, then you have Detroit.
Dan Gilbert has done some amazing projects in Downtown Detroit through his Bedrock Development, but they are largely self funded. As long as they work well enough to pay debt service, and he can make some money back they are good to go. The Ford Corktown project, Michigan Central, was $1 billion.
Attracting similar equity in St. Louis requires finding outside investor looking for a 16% return, so for a big project you have to a) get to a 16% return, b) convince someone most likely from outside of St. Louis to invest $10 to $20 million in Downtown despite all the bad press, low regional growth, etc.
By comparison cost estimates for the St. Louis MLS stadium are about $500M, largely self-funded. So, imagine if St. Louis had three Taylor families each doing multiple projects, then you have Detroit.
The St. Louis business community is so insular and weak outside of families like the Taylors. Most of the rest of our corporate elite have really doubled down on the country club, golf course, ultra conservative playbook and wonder why we have such a hard time attracting and retaining talent.TalkinDev wrote: ↑Jun 05, 2024The advantage Detroit has is that they have 3 billionaire+ stakeholders that are willing to dump cash into Downtown & Corktown without needing market rate returns or attracting other investors... Dan Gilbert, Mike Ilitch, and Ford.
Dan Gilbert has done some amazing projects in Downtown Detroit through his Bedrock Development, but they are largely self funded. As long as they work well enough to pay debt service, and he can make some money back they are good to go. The Ford Corktown project, Michigan Central, was $1 billion.
Attracting similar equity in St. Louis requires finding outside investor looking for a 16% return, so for a big project you have to a) get to a 16% return, b) convince someone most likely from outside of St. Louis to invest $10 to $20 million in Downtown despite all the bad press, low regional growth, etc.
By comparison cost estimates for the St. Louis MLS stadium are about $500M, largely self-funded. So, imagine if St. Louis had three Taylor families each doing multiple projects, then you have Detroit.
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I've been thinking about this for a few years particularly in or around the Kosciusko area. Some sort of green linear park along the river with courts and paths would be a huge upgrade.stlurbanist wrote: ↑Jun 05, 2024Why can't we have basketball and tennis/pickleball courts along riverfront?
It's hard to tell what's actively in use and what's vacant in this area. Certainly there are no active trains operating in this area that I've ever seen. With the mish mash of land owners and remediation and who knows what else this is simply a pipe dream.
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^There are most definitely active trains running in the Kosciusko area.
The Union Pacific Lesprance Yard takes up a good chunk of Kosciusko between the flood wall and 2nd Street.
The Union Pacific Lesprance Yard takes up a good chunk of Kosciusko between the flood wall and 2nd Street.
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Urban Land Institute was in January to host workshops on gateway mall, I got to participate in a couple. Here is their final report and recommendations
https://knowledge.uli.org/-/media/files ... -final.pdf
https://knowledge.uli.org/-/media/files ... -final.pdf
After skimming, it’s nice but has limited new
information or value than Design Downtown, Downtown Mobility Plan, or the Gateway Mall Plan.
It should’ve focused much more on the real numbers and legitimate step by step strategies to fund the improvements and less so “activation” concepts. Expand on the potential funding sources.
Projections on buildings and roof gardens? So 2015.
Painting the street? 2018 is calling.
FOOD TRUCKS? Revolutionary… in 2013.
Regardless, best of luck to those responsible!
information or value than Design Downtown, Downtown Mobility Plan, or the Gateway Mall Plan.
It should’ve focused much more on the real numbers and legitimate step by step strategies to fund the improvements and less so “activation” concepts. Expand on the potential funding sources.
Projections on buildings and roof gardens? So 2015.
Painting the street? 2018 is calling.
FOOD TRUCKS? Revolutionary… in 2013.
Regardless, best of luck to those responsible!
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Also participated in the panel. I think the overall direction is excellent. The space needs to pivot away from an office and corporate business model and toward a social and neighborhood model. Acquisition of key spaces, and activation of ground floor spaces and eventual redevelopment of the garages are great recommendations. Stressing that it will take curating and support is key. Stage at the new Kiener is a great idea.
Also agree with above^. The recommendations are kind of dated and greenwashed.
Got a handful of other gripes:
-The talk about "preserving" Peabody is a joke. Since it is a an unfortante reality- they double down on building around and digitally erasing it. But the idea to acquire it is sound. That would mean one step closer to razing it.
-Likewise being put together on the heels of the 7th street connector project, the recommendations feel like a sort of justification of that plan.
-Its all a little heavy on the identity politics...even for this progressive.
I like that it stresses "immediate recommendations" to position for acquiring the spaces, especially while the market is slow. Rare for a plan of any sort to be that forward with next steps. Hoping GSL and SLDC take these recommendations seriously.
Also agree with above^. The recommendations are kind of dated and greenwashed.
Got a handful of other gripes:
-The talk about "preserving" Peabody is a joke. Since it is a an unfortante reality- they double down on building around and digitally erasing it. But the idea to acquire it is sound. That would mean one step closer to razing it.
-Likewise being put together on the heels of the 7th street connector project, the recommendations feel like a sort of justification of that plan.
-Its all a little heavy on the identity politics...even for this progressive.
I like that it stresses "immediate recommendations" to position for acquiring the spaces, especially while the market is slow. Rare for a plan of any sort to be that forward with next steps. Hoping GSL and SLDC take these recommendations seriously.
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I may be the only person in St. Louis that fails to understand how razing the Peabody is going to make downtown better and more vibrant.
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I have no issue with the Peabody either. I WANT the Gateway Mall activated. I am glad something is being done to consider possibilities. I do not think it can just be "park" as our residents love Forrest Park, Tower Grove etc. It could be the downtown green space for those residents once we establish even more residents. No expert, just enjoy reading the ideas and providing some occasional feedback.
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Imagine you have a awesome office. Its kind of narrow but that works because at the other end there's a cool antique desk and above the desk an amazing floor to ceiling arched picture window. Along the walls are some great peices of furniture some antique, some not so antique, but they work together in an interesting way and they frame the room. Then you're like--hmm you know what would be great, right there in front of the nicest piece of furniture in this room, I'm going to put a this big refridgerator. Yep, I know it totally blocks my favorite cabinet, and its hard to get around and I cant see the window so well now, but this is a good choice. Yep, the refridgerator stays!RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑Jun 06, 2024I may be the only person in St. Louis that fails to understand how razing the Peabody is going to make downtown better and more vibrant.
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Just so I’m clear, who’s view is the Peabody building blocking besides from the sculpture park?verdantruins wrote:Imagine you have a awesome office. Its kind of narrow but that works because at the other end there's a cool antique desk and above the desk an amazing floor to ceiling arched picture window. Along the walls are some great peices of furniture some antique, some not so antique, but they work together in an interesting way and they frame the room. Then you're like--hmm you know what would be great, right there in front of the nicest piece of furniture in this room, I'm going to put a this big refridgerator. Yep, I know it totally blocks my favorite cabinet, and its hard to get around and I cant see the window so well now, but this is a good choice. Yep, the refridgerator stays!RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑Jun 06, 2024I may be the only person in St. Louis that fails to understand how razing the Peabody is going to make downtown better and more vibrant.
I have never understood the placement of the Peabody Building. It sits right in the middle of the Gateway Mall and seems an aberration. It should probably not have been built there in the first place.
Having said that, I would be hesitant in this economic environment to raze a perfectly nice downtown office building, sending its tenants scattering to the four winds, and as likely as not, outside of downtown. I think an argument could actually be made that there is enough green space downtown and the city would in the long run be healthier with some of those park expanses turned back into new, productive buildings of all types.
Having said that, I would be hesitant in this economic environment to raze a perfectly nice downtown office building, sending its tenants scattering to the four winds, and as likely as not, outside of downtown. I think an argument could actually be made that there is enough green space downtown and the city would in the long run be healthier with some of those park expanses turned back into new, productive buildings of all types.
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I tend to agree with that approach. Would I have built it there in the first place? No. But I don’t think it’s enough of a hindrance to lose the massing.stlokc wrote:I have never understood the placement of the Peabody Building. It sits right in the middle of the Gateway Mall and seems an aberration. It should probably not have been built there in the first place.
Having said that, I would be hesitant in this economic environment to raze a perfectly nice downtown office building, sending its tenants scattering to the four winds, and as likely as not, outside of downtown. I think an argument could actually be made that there is enough green space downtown and the city would in the long run be healthier with some of those park expanses turned back into new, productive buildings of all types.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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If everything lining the mall was fully occupied and the Mall was bursting with activity (to be fair Keiner and City Garden have been pretty active several times when i've been down there recently) i think a fresh look at what could be done with the block where Peabody sits would make some sense.
But the idea of tearing down a block of fully occupied Class A office space to convert to <undefined> because it offends your sense of symmetry does not make a lot of sense.
Personally if you get to a point where.
909 Chestnut is fully occupied
Keiner 1 and 2 are razed and rebuilt as towers
Serra Park is somehow made not terrible
the western mall is developed in a way that is aligned with a longterm vision for the mall
Several long vacant building in downtown are occupied (in particular the REX).
BPV is built out
Then lets revisit razing Peabody
Oh and also maybe decide what it should be before we do it so we aren't just making an empty grass field. Personally i would like to see it still be a structure, not just another public plaza.
I could see it as a signature attraction/venue though i am not sure what. I could also see it as a sort of market area for street vendors, though i wouldn't want to cannibalize Soulard too much.
But the idea of tearing down a block of fully occupied Class A office space to convert to <undefined> because it offends your sense of symmetry does not make a lot of sense.
Personally if you get to a point where.
909 Chestnut is fully occupied
Keiner 1 and 2 are razed and rebuilt as towers
Serra Park is somehow made not terrible
the western mall is developed in a way that is aligned with a longterm vision for the mall
Several long vacant building in downtown are occupied (in particular the REX).
BPV is built out
Then lets revisit razing Peabody
Oh and also maybe decide what it should be before we do it so we aren't just making an empty grass field. Personally i would like to see it still be a structure, not just another public plaza.
I could see it as a signature attraction/venue though i am not sure what. I could also see it as a sort of market area for street vendors, though i wouldn't want to cannibalize Soulard too much.
When you say Keiner 1 and 2, are you referring to the the parking garages?
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Anybody know when the Brickline is supposed to officially go through here? Seems like sections are already complete through City Garden and Keiner Plaza (assuming those wide sidewalks on the Market side are eventually for the Brickline)
Also will the Old Courthouse streetscape renovation include that segment of the Brickline? Seems like it would be pretty wasteful if not
Also will the Old Courthouse streetscape renovation include that segment of the Brickline? Seems like it would be pretty wasteful if not
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yeahlegendrey wrote: ↑Jun 06, 2024When you say Keiner 1 and 2, are you referring to the the parking garages?