Sure, be that as it may, the concepts are there though. I'm saying, to TalkinDevs question, while the work they've done there wouldn't be physically the same in form persay due to flooding constraints....the projects they've completed offer much inspiration and creative direction for what could be workable here.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2024once again, the river at Louisville, like Cincinatti doesn't flood as violently nor does it reach the major flood stage nearly as much as it does here.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2024I'd say Louisville, Ky is our closest contemporary. Similar histories...similar former riverfront functions...and Louisville has invested heavily in the transition of their waterfront land from working to recreational. Louisville has the riverfront we've deserved for decades...every time I've been, I've been so jealous. And I come back here, see our industrial sludge waste strewn riverfront and I can actually see how everything they've done there could translate here.TalkinDev wrote: ↑Jun 03, 2024What downtown riverfronts should we be looking at as realistic comparison/aspiration?
Exactly. Check every city (even small towns) that are on the Mississippi (Minneapolis doesn't count as that's the beginning of the river). Not one of them has a super active riverfront. Everything is either behind a floodwall or up a hill. It's just not possible. This is why The Landing development doesn't really start until a few blocks up the hill.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2024once again, the river at Louisville, like Cincinatti doesn't flood as violently nor does it reach the major flood stage nearly as much as it does here.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2024I'd say Louisville, Ky is our closest contemporary. Similar histories...similar former riverfront functions...and Louisville has invested heavily in the transition of their waterfront land from working to recreational. Louisville has the riverfront we've deserved for decades...every time I've been, I've been so jealous. And I come back here, see our industrial sludge waste strewn riverfront and I can actually see how everything they've done there could translate here.TalkinDev wrote: ↑Jun 03, 2024What downtown riverfronts should we be looking at as realistic comparison/aspiration?
I was curious what others would say...
Seem like a lot of people forget/dismiss the fact that we have a National Park on our riverfront. Louisville does have a nice long riverfront park (longer that the Arch grounds), but on either side is an industrial section and literally interstate highways on the Riverfront.
Cinncinnati is another comparison, but its stadium complexes essentially occupy the space of the Arch grounds. Their western riverfront is very industrial similar to St. Louis. To the east on the Ohio side there are some nice residential buildings.
DB, the width of Mississippi is about 50% wider than the Ohio through Cincinnati and similar the width through Louisville, can you explain why the flooding in more dramatic in St. Louis than these other cities? Mississippi just more volatile than the Ohio or something about the geography?
Seem like a lot of people forget/dismiss the fact that we have a National Park on our riverfront. Louisville does have a nice long riverfront park (longer that the Arch grounds), but on either side is an industrial section and literally interstate highways on the Riverfront.
Cinncinnati is another comparison, but its stadium complexes essentially occupy the space of the Arch grounds. Their western riverfront is very industrial similar to St. Louis. To the east on the Ohio side there are some nice residential buildings.
DB, the width of Mississippi is about 50% wider than the Ohio through Cincinnati and similar the width through Louisville, can you explain why the flooding in more dramatic in St. Louis than these other cities? Mississippi just more volatile than the Ohio or something about the geography?
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snowy season in the north starts melting when our rainy spring comesTalkinDev wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2024
DB, the width of Mississippi is about 50% wider than the Ohio through Cincinnati and similar the width through Louisville, can you explain why the flooding in more dramatic in St. Louis than these other cities? Mississippi just more volatile than the Ohio or something about the geography?
Something something...Louisville doesn't flood something? 
https://louisvillemsd.org/programs/prog ... ir%20homes.
https://louisvillemsd.org/programs/prog ... ir%20homes.
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its like talking to children, nobody said it doesn't flood, look at the dates of those. ....and now look at the dates of ours
Louisville most recent and only in top 10 is 1997
4 of our top 10 are since 2013
Louisville most recent and only in top 10 is 1997
4 of our top 10 are since 2013
| 49.58 ft | on 08-01-1993 | |
| 46.02 ft | on 06-09-2019 | |
| 43.23 ft | on 04-28-1973 | |
| 42.52 ft | on 01-01-2016 | |
| 42.00 ft | on 04-01-1785 | |
| 41.89 ft | on 05-22-1995 | |
| 41.70 ft | on 05-06-2017 | |
| 41.32 ft | on 06-27-1844 | |
| 40.52 ft | on 06-04-2013 | |
| 40.30 ft | on 07-02-1947 |
As you can see in these images of the Louisville Waterfront area, it is not flush with the river. It has indeed been built up to create natural levees with undulating landscape topography. Otherwise, The Big Four Bridge, which was converted from rail to pedestrian and cyclist use, is a directly comparable example to our own MacArthur Bridge. So, really? You believe the ONLY solution is the large concrete walls for our riverfront?
Concrete is how the Mississippi River valley BECAME so tumultuous. Concrete does not allow for bodies of water to naturally regulate. A more permeable, naturally elevated riverfront would likely reduce a lot of prevailing flooding issues in the region. Much as man has attempted to do so...nature cannot be detained long. So why not work with nature and envision a future where St Louis can have a more natural, earthen riverfront that still maintains barriers to flooding while making it more accessible and functional for recreational and residential use?
Concrete is how the Mississippi River valley BECAME so tumultuous. Concrete does not allow for bodies of water to naturally regulate. A more permeable, naturally elevated riverfront would likely reduce a lot of prevailing flooding issues in the region. Much as man has attempted to do so...nature cannot be detained long. So why not work with nature and envision a future where St Louis can have a more natural, earthen riverfront that still maintains barriers to flooding while making it more accessible and functional for recreational and residential use?
dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2024its like talking to children, nobody said it doesn't flood, look at the dates of those. ....and now look at the dates of ours
Louisville most recent and only in top 10 is 1997
4 of our top 10 are since 2013
49.58 ft on 08-01-1993 46.02 ft on 06-09-2019 43.23 ft on 04-28-1973 42.52 ft on 01-01-2016 42.00 ft on 04-01-1785 41.89 ft on 05-22-1995 41.70 ft on 05-06-2017 41.32 ft on 06-27-1844 40.52 ft on 06-04-2013 40.30 ft on 07-02-1947
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Yeah, I agree with DB. Been to Louisville a number of times recently. The river there isn’t comparable.
Man, it would be killer to have east STL look like New Albany, IN.
Man, it would be killer to have east STL look like New Albany, IN.
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BINGO. New Albany and Jeffersonville are strong middle class suburbs with commercial heavy downtowns.TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2024Yeah, I agree with DB. Been to Louisville a number of times recently. The river there isn’t comparable.
Man, it would be killer to have east STL look like New Albany, IN.
Same with Cincinnati. Northern Kentucky is flush with investment. The main airport is over there, as well as some of the regions top headquarters, and some entertainment options (aquarium for instance).
East St. Louis - While I’d love to see it thrive, I fear that we are a long way from it. On top of it being an eyesore from the river, it’s a big reason our population is not centered around downtown. Plus as DB points out, flooding is a way bigger issue over there than these other riversides. The largest suburbs in Louisville are in Indiana and the same has now trended that way in Cincy for Kentucky suburbs.
Louisville’s waterfront has improved, though not outstanding by any means. Cincy on the city proper side is not too great. The other sides carry them pretty well though (amphitheaters, patios, residential).
I got an idea though that has nothing to do with the flooding - what both of these cities have - a walking/cycling bridge over the river cutoff to cars. We can do this with the Eads Bridge. It is an awesome looking bridge and can continue to serves metrolink on its lower level. The upper level isn’t used by cars very heavily already. We already have three interstate bridges and the bridge itself is kind of already cut off naturally from the system.
It could connect the landing, arch grounds and Malcolm Memorial park. It would give great views of the city and would certainly be an attraction for downtown. Big 4 bridge in louisville has become one of their bigger attractions as part of that park. The walking bridge in Cincy has helped the entertainment in the northern kentucky side because people spend time over there before and after games and just walk over the bridge.
Making Eads Bridge a walking bridge over the river should happen - several river cities have this that I’ve been to in their downtown area (Nashville, Louisville, Cincy, Austin, Minneapolis).
So we wouldn’t even be ahead of the curve. It’s a standard we aren’t meeting and we have plenty of existing bridges to make it happen.
This is a great idea. Always loved the view of the skyline from there, and it really doesn't get much use. I'd be interested to see what other ideas might apparate after turning the Eads into a pedestrian bridge.
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You CAN walk across the Eads bridge. I know there is a dedicated walking lane on the south side, and I think the north side as well. I have walked about half way out for some great photos of the city. I am just not sure there is a demand at this time to walk across the full span. I wish the trip to the Malcom Martin Memorial Park was more inviting. I also haven't seen the huge fountain going off recently? Just timing? I used to see it often.
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You can walk across it and it does have some nice jut outs. But these walking/cycling bridges are an attraction themselves. They are busy in all of these cities. Making it a recreational bridge will encourage locals to come downtown. Especially with how well it could connect with the riverfront greenway and the upcoming Brickline. Then you give tourists a unique experience as they are unlikely to walk across the Eads from the Arch as it stands now. Rarely see people do it. But Arch-Eads-Malcolm along with the greenways could become a whole attraction to promote and I guarantee it would turn into something. Louisville’s downtown is more dead than StL for sure, yet that Big 4 bridge stays busy in the evenings and on weekends. Here with our tourism for the arch, I bet it would be busy at all times of day during warm season and enough to sustain some commercial development on both ends of it or at least more temporary vendors across it and along the riverfront. Jeffersonville in Indiana rebuilt their business environment on the waterfront in a big part due to the walking bridge.STLCityMike wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2024You CAN walk across the Eads bridge. I know there is a dedicated walking lane on the south side, and I think the north side as well. I have walked about half way out for some great photos of the city. I am just not sure there is a demand at this time to walk across the full span. I wish the trip to the Malcom Martin Memorial Park was more inviting. I also haven't seen the huge fountain going off recently? Just timing? I used to see it often.
Geyser is no more. They shut it down
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^ really? the gateway geyser has been permanently plugged? ugh...
Soon as in this season or end of year?dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑May 26, 2024Should be an announcement soon on a $100m+ downtown project.
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Waterfront Park in Louisville is completely choked off by interstates and has a parking lot every 500 ft.
I really like what they did with the big four bridge and I LOVE THAT THEY HAVE A MARINA.
But to suggest that Waterfron park is something StL has to look up to while we have the arch grounds is laughable.
Again, a Laclede’s Landing marina is such an obviously good idea. There is plenty of parking along commercial and the old President Casino dock has some of the infrastructure in place. Why can’t folks get behind it?
Primary difference seems to be that people in Louisville actually like Louisville. Stark contrast to St. Louis.
I really like what they did with the big four bridge and I LOVE THAT THEY HAVE A MARINA.
But to suggest that Waterfron park is something StL has to look up to while we have the arch grounds is laughable.
Again, a Laclede’s Landing marina is such an obviously good idea. There is plenty of parking along commercial and the old President Casino dock has some of the infrastructure in place. Why can’t folks get behind it?
Primary difference seems to be that people in Louisville actually like Louisville. Stark contrast to St. Louis.
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Eads should be more than a ped bridge. It should be a linear park across the Mississippi with shade trees, gardens, fountains, and seating. Obviously this would be expensive as the bridge is very long, so in the meantime I would settle for cutting traffic to one lane in each direction on the north side, with a nice and wide ped/bike ROW taking up the southern half. Maybe throw some speed bumps on the driving side.
We also need to connect the overlook on top of the train tunnel on the Arch ground to the Eads. It's what, 30 feet away? Should have been built during CityArchRiver
We also need to connect the overlook on top of the train tunnel on the Arch ground to the Eads. It's what, 30 feet away? Should have been built during CityArchRiver
One of the primary challenges to Eads is the historic status and the number of complex stakeholders that have buy-in to do anything significant.
I agree though. The park deck should be connected to Eads. Eads should be closed and the deck rebuilt.
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I agree though. The park deck should be connected to Eads. Eads should be closed and the deck rebuilt.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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couple things. i have occasionally wondered if the appeal of clayton is the fact that there is so much executive level housing adjacent to downtown. Looking at Downtown St. Louis there is no comparable housing option adjacent to downtown. I realize there is a reasonable argument that decries the segregation of classes through gated communities etc. but from a pragmatic perspective i wonder if an elite gated community (perhaps on the near north riverfront between say O-'Fallon and Mullanphy) might motivate business owners to headquarter in downtown. I'm not pro elitist, but i do recognize the decision makers often are and given i don't expect us to be able to overthrow an entrenched oligarchy i do wonder if there is a low impact way to strategically cater to it for the benefit of St. Louis as a whole.
Secondly regarding the Eads Bridge. I would really like to see it closed one weekend a month from May to Sept and host a linear festival/market literally on the bridge. Artist and crafts, food vendors etc. If you can get carnival rides on the deck then that'd be awesome. They do camel rides at Grants Farm, as a throwback to the opening of the bridge, are elephant rides ever a thing...?
Secondly regarding the Eads Bridge. I would really like to see it closed one weekend a month from May to Sept and host a linear festival/market literally on the bridge. Artist and crafts, food vendors etc. If you can get carnival rides on the deck then that'd be awesome. They do camel rides at Grants Farm, as a throwback to the opening of the bridge, are elephant rides ever a thing...?
Downtown Detroit can possibly secure an Apple store while downtown St. Louis can't do anything.
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They used to do this for the 4th, didn't they? I definitely remember walking on it and there were lots of food stalls.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Jun 05, 2024Secondly regarding the Eads Bridge. I would really like to see it closed one weekend a month from May to Sept and host a linear festival/market literally on the bridge. Artist and crafts, food vendors etc. If you can get carnival rides on the deck then that'd be awesome. They do camel rides at Grants Farm, as a throwback to the opening of the bridge, are elephant rides ever a thing...?
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That particular area of Downtown Detroit is pretty impressive. While it only has slightly more people living in its DT, it has roughly double the amount of people working in its DT than us. That really shows in street / retail activity.
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