Right. The things on AddxB2's list might entice families with kids to remain in/move to cities, but they won't entice couples who don't want children to suddenly start breeding. That "problem" is deeper rooted and seems endemic to advanced capitalist societies.CG91 wrote: ↑Apr 06, 2023It’s interesting, Norway, a country that seemingly has all that and more, had their lowest birth rate on record last year. So who the hell knowsaddxb2 wrote:City of St. Louis labor force and employment during the same period. Labor force leveled off in 2018. This supports the claim that fewer children is the primary challenge.
You can make a list of things that would help but it’d look like the typical list. Affordable housing and childcare. Better and more stable schools. Lower street crime. More trees and parks.
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That was what I am picturing too. The Webster or Kirkwood type area being more favored and new growth may be developed to be closer to that. Also picture densification of some suburban areas.SB in BH wrote: ↑Apr 06, 2023^Population decline may hit the burbs especially hard. Not enough cheap labor, credit, materials (namely energy) to maintain all of those extra miles of infrastructure. Increasingly expensive fossil fuels and an insufficient supply of replacement renewable energy might make sprawl in general less economically viable. WFH may mitigate some of that for those with email jobs, but for people who's jobs involve more than a computer and internet connection, it may become necessary to live closer to work.
Of course that doesn't mean those people will move back to the City, but rather that rural small towns along with suburbs with urban amenities, like Webster or Kirkwood, may become more dense, with the "strip malls and subdivisions" type of suburb gradually hollowing out.
Where in the St. Louis metro would be primed to become something like a Kirkwood or Webster?
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The events happening in Paris currently are coming to America soon and much needed.
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^ You really think the gop house is going to propose raising the retirement age? I mean I know they’re stupid but that stupid?
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Probably just wreck any sort of retirement safety nets, thus making retirement nearly impossible for most.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Apr 06, 2023^ You really think the gop house is going to propose raising the retirement age? I mean I know they’re stupid but that stupid?
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Remember the Yellowvest Paris riots? The people of France do not like oppressive government tyranny.
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^ yeah i know, did you not see what happened in Wisconsin Tuesday during its Supreme Court race after yahoos started banning women's heathcare choices? did you not see what happened in west county school board races on Tuesday after the yahoo's starting banning books?
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I'm pro-weird and my post about loving weirdness was deleted. That's weird. As much as you would like to curate this forum into ... whatever. I ain't going away been posting since 05.
Please tell me catch me up on West County. If the boringest of normie enclaves are fighting over book banning then that's surely a bell-weather for everywhere else.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Apr 06, 2023^ yeah i know, did you not see what happened in Wisconsin Tuesday during its Supreme Court race after yahoos started banning women's heathcare choices? did you not see what happened in west county school board races on Tuesday after the yahoo's starting banning books?
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Every candidate endorsed by the right wing loons lost in STL county, some did win in st.Charles
Thanks, and good to hear. I'm only 40 so don't yet listen to local talk radio. Marc Cox is like local Rush Limbaugh or something? I thought that was Mark Reardon. Is he still on KMOX doing his "I used to live in the City, let me tell you how terrible it is" schtick?
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New census estimates have St. Louis city at 286,000 residents.
I used to think that the city would bottom out around 270,000 or so residents, but I'm thinking that figure might be too high now.
I don't know where the bleeding stops now. Perhaps somewhere around 250,000.
I used to think that the city would bottom out around 270,000 or so residents, but I'm thinking that figure might be too high now.
I don't know where the bleeding stops now. Perhaps somewhere around 250,000.
^ This discussion started on page 38:
2020-census-t9745-s925.html#p375331
Tl;dr, most people here don’t seem to trust the estimates (I don’t either).
2020-census-t9745-s925.html#p375331
Tl;dr, most people here don’t seem to trust the estimates (I don’t either).
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https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local ... c25c9a07ab
I find this ("0.4%, or more than 11,000 population loss, from 2021 to 2022") to be quite disturbing. I know we have an extremely dysfunctional government structure, we have seen job loss, high crime, etc, but underneath it all, what are the driving forces for such large losses. I think there could be more to the remote work migration than some believe. We have seen many large local corporations go 100% remote work. If you are from North Carolina or Florida, what would keep you from moving back there once your company goes remote? I know there are people from here that have moved back due to remote work, but maybe some of those numbers are not in our favor. I also think there is a large group of people that are sick and tired of the crime, disfunction and overall stupidity of our "leaders". I am just throwing darts, but we all know we have to stop the bleeding! Unfortunately, our 'leaders' have not been capable of fixing this for decades. I think more so than immigrants, we need jobs, jobs and more jobs. That is what is going to bring people from far away here. Immigrants can add to that, but we need jobs to sustain a strong economy here. Unfortunately, the big manufacturers continue to choose sunbelt states. It frustrates me when Kansas gets a huge battery plant and we are skipped over again. Things have got to change! I know this story has been written over and over, but the bleeding is only getting worse. It used to be the City's issue. This is now a huge regional issue as we know.
I find this ("0.4%, or more than 11,000 population loss, from 2021 to 2022") to be quite disturbing. I know we have an extremely dysfunctional government structure, we have seen job loss, high crime, etc, but underneath it all, what are the driving forces for such large losses. I think there could be more to the remote work migration than some believe. We have seen many large local corporations go 100% remote work. If you are from North Carolina or Florida, what would keep you from moving back there once your company goes remote? I know there are people from here that have moved back due to remote work, but maybe some of those numbers are not in our favor. I also think there is a large group of people that are sick and tired of the crime, disfunction and overall stupidity of our "leaders". I am just throwing darts, but we all know we have to stop the bleeding! Unfortunately, our 'leaders' have not been capable of fixing this for decades. I think more so than immigrants, we need jobs, jobs and more jobs. That is what is going to bring people from far away here. Immigrants can add to that, but we need jobs to sustain a strong economy here. Unfortunately, the big manufacturers continue to choose sunbelt states. It frustrates me when Kansas gets a huge battery plant and we are skipped over again. Things have got to change! I know this story has been written over and over, but the bleeding is only getting worse. It used to be the City's issue. This is now a huge regional issue as we know.
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What’s crazy to me is this is now a St. Louis County issue yet we don’t hear much about the County’s losses.
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In the past, we had very modest gains regionally. The losses focused on the City and a stagnant STL County population, in favor of a boom in St. Charles and surrounding counties. Now we are losing a large % as a region. It is not just people fleeing to the western burbs.
I would guess we are losing long-time residents and people that moved here for work or whatever reason, but had no other ties to the region. I've been here my entire life and see more diversity and immigrants than ever, so I guess the immigrants are keeping our population losses from being epic. We need those immigrants, but at the same time, we have to keep our residents and create new JOBS!
I would guess we are losing long-time residents and people that moved here for work or whatever reason, but had no other ties to the region. I've been here my entire life and see more diversity and immigrants than ever, so I guess the immigrants are keeping our population losses from being epic. We need those immigrants, but at the same time, we have to keep our residents and create new JOBS!
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I think it's mostly leadership.
Leadership in this region is horrifically awful. And Kimberly Gardner is just one part of it.
What's most frustrating is that it feels like our leaders yawn when they read stories like this. They don't seem to care.
The next 40 years will roll by and St. Louis will drop another twenty or thirty spots in US population rankings.
Leadership in this region is horrifically awful. And Kimberly Gardner is just one part of it.
What's most frustrating is that it feels like our leaders yawn when they read stories like this. They don't seem to care.
The next 40 years will roll by and St. Louis will drop another twenty or thirty spots in US population rankings.
I tried.whitherSTL wrote: ↑May 04, 2023What’s crazy to me is this is now a St. Louis County issue yet we don’t hear much about the County’s losses.
NextSTL - Failure of Fragmentation: St. Louis County Municipal Population Loss
https://nextstl.com/2022/03/failure-of- ... tion-loss/While there is endless discussion over the city’s plight, the reasons for it and what to do about it, the 60 municipalities that lost population lost 156,000 residents (29.7%) over the same period. The losses there should be of great concern too, but due to its fragmentation, it has received less attention.
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^^ Agree 100%. I think our region is going to be forced to consolidate in a massive way at some point in the future due to the being left so far behind. Will the "leaders" be smart enough to take some initiative and save our region before we really hit a rock-bottom never seen before in our region's history? I doubt it, but maybe the next generation of 'leaders' will realize how stupid past 'leaders' have been and FINALLY do what we need to do, to right the historic wrong that is the City-County divorce.
The Great Divorce is definitely our "original sin." But, like the Garden of Eden, you can't go back. Not so long as County voters have any say in the matter, and the people in charge, of the City and other municipalities especially, perceive they personally would lose from consolidation. I'd love to be convinced otherwise, but am pretty sure Better Together has wrecked any merger hopes for a good long while.DogtownBnR wrote: ↑May 04, 2023^^ Agree 100%. I think our region is going to be forced to consolidate in a massive way at some point in the future due to the being left so far behind. Will the "leaders" be smart enough to take some initiative and save our region before we really hit a rock-bottom never seen before in our region's history? I doubt it, but maybe the next generation of 'leaders' will realize how stupid past 'leaders' have been and FINALLY do what we need to do, to right the historic wrong that is the City-County divorce.
That being said, the underlying economic dynamics are shifting. The suburbs are only viable if there's a reliable source of cheap finance, energy, and labor. Take away any one of those pillars and suddenly consolidation, via a shrinking of the built environment, is inevitable.
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Yeah i would agree demographic decline might encourage consolidation, but i don't see how consolidation fixes demographic decline. For that you need new bodies and there are two ways to get that, immigration and economic boom which are themselves intertangled a bit. There is a third way which is 'have more babies' but short of illegalizing birth control i don't see that happening.