I suspect that the reason that the previous rendering was cropped to exclude the Top Golf, was because that clearly that isn't happening due to the Top Golf coming to Midtown.
You know, like a gazebo.jeff707 wrote: ↑Nov 16, 2022covered open-air?
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That 'pavilion is like 1/3 the size of Crunden-Martin. Some of these things just aren't making much sense...
The city needs to tell them, 'We are interested, and we are open to considering tax abatement. Let us know when you actually know what you want to build.'
The city needs to tell them, 'We are interested, and we are open to considering tax abatement. Let us know when you actually know what you want to build.'
As it’s been said here a million times, don’t read too much into renderings.
These are concepts, not final plans.
These are concepts, not final plans.
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Green light from the LCRA...
STL Biz Journal: Tax incentives for $1.2B Gateway South redevelopment recommended by city board
STL Biz Journal: Tax incentives for $1.2B Gateway South redevelopment recommended by city board
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But it looks so real! /ssc4mayor wrote:As it’s been said here a million times, don’t read too much into renderings.
These are concepts, not final plans.
Totally agree. As somebody that creates these renderings I often hide tidbits of fun in them ie hidden Waldo type things. Renderings should never be taken literally. They are used to garner development interest to get the money.
Absolutely, this development will definitely look way different if it ever breaks ground. I'm thinking at least a couple more renderings and scale adjustments before a shovel ever hits ground.LArchitecture wrote: ↑Nov 16, 2022But it looks so real! /ssc4mayor wrote:As it’s been said here a million times, don’t read too much into renderings.
These are concepts, not final plans.
Totally agree. As somebody that creates these renderings I often hide tidbits of fun in them ie hidden Waldo type things. Renderings should never be taken literally. They are used to garner development interest to get the money.
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Not saying don't play, but the city needs to make sure they have a sober eye. I guess the city can't be grifted, as long as they aren't cutting a check, but their 'plan' just doesn't seem coherent to me.
The more definitive parts of the plans are surely the historic buildings since those are the first to be dealt with. Anything gray in the aerial rendering is simply filler for what could eventually sprout up. As I said a while back, I expect the northern high-rises to shrink, and the new office buildings shown in the image be switched to residential usages. This will still be a transformative development, just it'll be done in a much more doable fashion.
I agree, there does not need to be massive high-rise buildings at all in this development. Infill, that is the same height as the historic buildings would actually go a long way too. Anyone who has ever been to DC can attest that building in the 5-10 story range can do wonders for a city. St. Louis has never been a tall city and focusing on mid-rise infill and even townhouse infill on our vacant lots in the core would give us a much more vibrant core than many of the sunbelt cities that are having super high-rise booms right now.chriss752 wrote: ↑Nov 17, 2022The more definitive parts of the plans are surely the historic buildings since those are the first to be dealt with. Anything gray in the aerial rendering is simply filler for what could eventually sprout up. As I said a while back, I expect the northern high-rises to shrink, and the new office buildings shown in the image be switched to residential usages. This will still be a transformative development, just it'll be done in a much more doable fashion.
Talked about at the LCRA meeting the other day - details on Phase 1.
These numbers seem to confirm that all old buildings on Chouteau's Landing will be dealt with first along with maybe a new building or two. That would be transformational in itself. I expect infrastructure improvements will add even more to that development cost, but it's nice to see more firm numbers getting out there.
- $200 million development cost
- 130 apartments
- 127,000sf retail space
- 275,000sf office space
- 745,000sf industrial space
These numbers seem to confirm that all old buildings on Chouteau's Landing will be dealt with first along with maybe a new building or two. That would be transformational in itself. I expect infrastructure improvements will add even more to that development cost, but it's nice to see more firm numbers getting out there.
Getting those historic buildings rehabbed and the infrastructure updated would be a game changed in itself. Any new infill would just be icing on the cake really. What's the chance this development actually breaks ground?chriss752 wrote: ↑Nov 17, 2022Talked about at the LCRA meeting the other day - details on Phase 1.
- $200 million development cost
- 130 apartments
- 127,000sf retail space
- 275,000sf office space
- 745,000sf industrial space
These numbers seem to confirm that all old buildings on Chouteau's Landing will be dealt with first along with maybe a new building or two. That would be transformational in itself. I expect infrastructure improvements will add even more to that development cost, but it's nice to see more firm numbers getting out there.
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If we could get all the infill like this I would be ecstatic.
That said, they're pitching a LOT of square footage for only 200 million. Perhaps the industrial component is lower in development costs than other uses?
And the 130 apartments is lower than I might have expected. I will look forward to the day we see a shovel in the ground.
That said, they're pitching a LOT of square footage for only 200 million. Perhaps the industrial component is lower in development costs than other uses?
And the 130 apartments is lower than I might have expected. I will look forward to the day we see a shovel in the ground.
I'm sure that number only includes Core/Shell work and the tenant will have their own TI build out. Lots of big open area for them to do what suits them. Not sure how industrial leases work, MEP is the tricky part.TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑Nov 17, 2022That said, they're pitching a LOT of square footage for only 200 million. Perhaps the industrial component is lower in development costs than other uses?
Considering that Good Developments Group has JDS’ Michael Stern as an investor in the project, among others, I say there’s a good shot it happens. Stern wouldn’t get involved if he didn’t think this would happen. They also have industrial manufacturers signed on as tenants for industrial space, so that likely helps them secure financing. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of their office space is claimed already. Those numbers are very specificgoat314 wrote: ↑Nov 17, 2022Getting those historic buildings rehabbed and the infrastructure updated would be a game changed in itself. Any new infill would just be icing on the cake really. What's the chance this development actually breaks ground?chriss752 wrote: ↑Nov 17, 2022Talked about at the LCRA meeting the other day - details on Phase 1.
- $200 million development cost
- 130 apartments
- 127,000sf retail space
- 275,000sf office space
- 745,000sf industrial space
These numbers seem to confirm that all old buildings on Chouteau's Landing will be dealt with first along with maybe a new building or two. That would be transformational in itself. I expect infrastructure improvements will add even more to that development cost, but it's nice to see more firm numbers getting out there.
I’m intrigued by the smaller infill buildings simply because I think they’d fit in perfectly down there. They can do a high rise if they want, but their small buildings would make more of an impact at the pedestrian level.TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑Nov 17, 2022If we could get all the infill like this I would be ecstatic.
CL Mid Rise.png
That said, they're pitching a LOT of square footage for only 200 million. Perhaps the industrial component is lower in development costs than other uses?
And the 130 apartments is lower than I might have expected. I will look forward to the day we see a shovel in the ground.
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Interested to see what kind of firms they are targeting. My hope will always be for us to corner the cross laminated timber market. Perhaps they can lure some firms like Clayco to have a presence as well.
I am still hoping for this to be more residentially focused than industrial though. Once the historic buildings are renovated I would think apartment projects would just keep rolling in similar to how things are going in Steelcote.
I am still hoping for this to be more residentially focused than industrial though. Once the historic buildings are renovated I would think apartment projects would just keep rolling in similar to how things are going in Steelcote.
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The article mentions that "the first two strategic partners coming into Gateway South will be offsite builder Assembly OSM, out of New York, and Fabrication Lab and Innovation Studio Collab, from Brooklyn."
Possibly the most hyperbolic headline in recent history:
The project promising to transform downtown St. Louis, the Mississippi riverfront & the global construction industry
The project promising to transform downtown St. Louis, the Mississippi riverfront & the global construction industry
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^ Assembly OSM is a prefab shop that can make high-rise modular buildings. Very cool. Collab looks like a makers studio for the construction industry.
Could be attractive to coastal firms looking for cheaper maker space in a central location. I could see some back office activity being lured in.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Nov 22, 2022Interested to see what kind of firms they are targeting. My hope will always be for us to corner the cross laminated timber market. Perhaps they can lure some firms like Clayco to have a presence as well.
I am still hoping for this to be more residentially focused than industrial though. Once the historic buildings are renovated I would think apartment projects would just keep rolling in similar to how things are going in Steelcote.
I think residential is slated more for the northern end of the project.
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I'm not so sure. I can understand the fear. This sounds very good, and anything this good . . . But I have some friends in architecture. There's a quiet revolution going on that involves 3D fabricating, robots, and brick, for instance, but I don't believed it has reached the US yet. To get here it would need some heavy hitters, like major New York developers and financers. And it would need industrial space with good logistical access; heavy logistics. I've had my doubts, but I'm beginning to think maybe . . . And let's be honest; if this is real, a billion dollars just there could truly be transformative. If . . .framer wrote: ↑Nov 22, 2022Possibly the most hyperbolic headline in recent history:
The project promising to transform downtown St. Louis, the Mississippi riverfront & the global construction industry
I liked seeing this quote: "'We’ve gotten unbelievable cooperation from local agencies,' said Mazzeo," in the article. I would have been shocked to hear that a few years ago, but from my outside perspective it appears organizations like Greater St Louis, Inc have put in a lot of effort to streamline the process of getting larger developments going (regardless of whether they are actually involved in any one particular project). I don't know how much this perception is true, but it's encouraging to hear that local agencies are being helpful in projects like this.