I find it surprising that old open air stadiums, now older than our dome was in 2015 like the ones in Denver and Nashville, seem to be able to book giant concerts, non-NFL sports, and other big events regularly. In spite of having an NFL team that we used to say limited what we were able to book prior to 2015. Even open air Busch has a few summer concerts every year. Couldn't the dome host more concerts - especially in the summer heat and winter cold? Isn't it better for concerts than Busch? And how about a bowl game? Nashville has one outdoors around New Years -- and ours would be indoors. Seems like a lack of imagination.dredger wrote: ↑Aug 18, 2022^ Not at all Gary. I think it just as competitive at current location and I for one wouldn't move it nor does it make sense for CVC/RSA to manage another space in differetn location
What I'm saying is that due to the age and what convention center feels the best use is that a decision on make In other words, the powers to be will need to make a decision on either doubling down to improve or make upgrades to dome and or really think about demo. Another way to put, how many events actually fill the dome each year and what revenues? How many more days and various events can the make use of the dome if they spent X dollars?
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I can't say for sure, but I think the simple fact the facility is viewed as "average at best," despite the roof, is part of the issue. I'm not a stadium connoisseur by any means, but I've heard people say the Dome was outdated the day it opened.
^ Can't argue with that but really clueless with how those events come together and realistically how many a given venue can secure. As you noted, Busch Stadium host a few concerts and could probably host more but probably about what Cards organization want to deal with or not. So next best large arena for concerts is the dome and it is an all year/all weather venue on top of it... I would assume quite a few regional options in terms of small to mid size concerts just thinkin about all the arenas alone.
I just can't help to think that when the current Convention Space expansion is completed that some efforts and dollars will need to go into the dome and or what is the long term plan? what do you actually do with the dome? Do you improve connectivity between dome & new convention space? Do you go all in on the roof rebuild to add those big windows that I believe were rendered once a time? Just curious what people thoughts are.
I just can't help to think that when the current Convention Space expansion is completed that some efforts and dollars will need to go into the dome and or what is the long term plan? what do you actually do with the dome? Do you improve connectivity between dome & new convention space? Do you go all in on the roof rebuild to add those big windows that I believe were rendered once a time? Just curious what people thoughts are.
The Dome was widely regarded as one of the worst stadiums in the entire NFL by the time the Rams left. And it was never regarded as a great facility, even when it first opened in 1995. It was an idea that was already at least 10 years out of date when it was built. The only closed roof facility to open since then is Ford Field in Detroit, which gets a ton of natural lighting from large windows and had the uniqueness of incorporating a then 80 year old warehouse for one entire side of the stadium.EssTeeEll wrote: ↑Aug 19, 2022I can't say for sure, but I think the simple fact the facility is viewed as "average at best," despite the roof, is part of the issue. I'm not a stadium connoisseur by any means, but I've heard people say the Dome was outdated the day it opened.
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If it's any consolation, I've heard multiple times that the Dome is considered to have some of the best acoustics of any indoor stadium in the country, so concerts could definitely be a focus.
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^Where the heck have you heard that? Having some of the best acoustics for a class of buildings with notoriously lousy acoustics isn't all that much of a laurel to stand on. The place sounds like a barn. A very very big barn. It has enough sound deadening to keep it from being absolutely abysmal, but I can't believe it's actually good. (Haven't heard a show there, just loaded one in. So maybe I'm wrong. But . . . man I find that hard to believe.)
I’ve heard the same thing directly from a friend’s brother who worked in the touring sound industry.Trololzilla wrote: ↑Aug 20, 2022If it's any consolation, I've heard multiple times that the Dome is considered to have some of the best acoustics of any indoor stadium in the country, so concerts could definitely be a focus.
No it’s not a specifically built tuned acoustic miracle like a purpose built symphony hall. But as domes go the Dome at Americas Center is shockingly good when compared to others. Other things he told me:
-Lucas Oil in Indy is hell
-the old Georgia Dome was another surprise at being able to tune and that the new stadium is a sound disaster.
I understand some people will never see a stadium show no matter what. Even if that concert involved bringing people back from the dead and the lineup was the classic era Led Zepplin, Rolling Stones, The Who and The Beatles for $20 a person. Yes, the Dome at Americas center is a barn and will sound like a barn. But as domes go it's pretty good.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Aug 20, 2022^Where the heck have you heard that? Having some of the best acoustics for a class of buildings with notoriously lousy acoustics isn't all that much of a laurel to stand on. The place sounds like a barn. A very very big barn. It has enough sound deadening to keep it from being absolutely abysmal, but I can't believe it's actually good. (Haven't heard a show there, just loaded one in. So maybe I'm wrong. But . . . man I find that hard to believe.)
I saw the David Gilmour/no Roger Waters Pink Floyd at the RCA Dome in Indianapolis. You could barely tell the difference between "Comfortably Numb" and "Run Like Hell".
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I saw a concert at the dome and it was awesome, 75,000 people showed up. I'd say the dome is a much better concert venue than Busch, I'd like to see more concerts held here.
Plus there’s supposedly an unwritten rule with the Cardinals as they don’t want to book anything past July to protect the field for the playoffs.jacob_rb_15 wrote: ↑Aug 20, 2022I saw a concert at the dome and it was awesome, 75,000 people showed up. I'd say the dome is a much better concert venue than Busch, I'd like to see more concerts held here.
Tip: if an artist is doing a stadium only tour and they’re playing Soldier Field, see them there. The smaller capacity and new stadium inside the old bowl setup makes even the worst seats really not that bad.
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On rating the best stadiums, I'm not sure there is a big difference in the core of any NFL stadiums nowadays -- it's not like there are poles blocking the view anywhere. Newer stadiums probably have slightly wider walkways or (now) bigger video scoreboards. Stadium raters usually cite the atmosphere and put Lambeau (and Busch) at or near the top -- even though physically they may not the most comfortable or have the best sight lines. The Jerry Dome has original paintings in the concourses. I guess that is a big plus for some folks.
But how far are the seats from the field? Kroenke wanted us to tear down the entire East half of the dome and rebuild it further from the field! The Arbitration board agreed that would be an upgrade because the seats in the Jerry Dome in Dallas are further from the field than seats in our dome. And Kroenke insisted on a lid that opened and closed, but then built a stadium in LA with a non-opening lid. In fact, of the 6 new NFL stadiums built in the last 12 years, only the Atlanta stadium has a roof that opens and closes. And teams with stadium roofs that open and close keep them closed at least 70% of the time and some 100%.
I love that Busch is an open air stadium, and our new unbuilt Rams stadium was going to be open air. But I have to admit when we went to Rams playoff games in January years ago, I appreciated having a heated dome out of the weather. I still recall one of the last Rams games hosting Denver and it snowed. And I saw Denver fans looking out the dome windows at the snow. I wondered if they were wishing Mile High had a lid in Decembers.
But how far are the seats from the field? Kroenke wanted us to tear down the entire East half of the dome and rebuild it further from the field! The Arbitration board agreed that would be an upgrade because the seats in the Jerry Dome in Dallas are further from the field than seats in our dome. And Kroenke insisted on a lid that opened and closed, but then built a stadium in LA with a non-opening lid. In fact, of the 6 new NFL stadiums built in the last 12 years, only the Atlanta stadium has a roof that opens and closes. And teams with stadium roofs that open and close keep them closed at least 70% of the time and some 100%.
I love that Busch is an open air stadium, and our new unbuilt Rams stadium was going to be open air. But I have to admit when we went to Rams playoff games in January years ago, I appreciated having a heated dome out of the weather. I still recall one of the last Rams games hosting Denver and it snowed. And I saw Denver fans looking out the dome windows at the snow. I wondered if they were wishing Mile High had a lid in Decembers.
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My knowledge of that comes entirely from personal experiences as well as things I've heard from the marching arts community, both Drum Corps and marching band. Having played and conducted on the field at the Dome many times personally, it does have some really phenomenal acoustics for that sort of activity, and honestly really anything that involves music, such as the aforementioned concerts. As Dweebe said, Lucas Oil is fairly awful for sound; it seems like there's always some shenanigans going on there with the sound/echoes which lends itself towards tearing off of the beat. Few other modern venues sound as good either - seems like the acoustics sweet spot was sometime during the mid-late 90s.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Aug 20, 2022^Where the heck have you heard that? Having some of the best acoustics for a class of buildings with notoriously lousy acoustics isn't all that much of a laurel to stand on. The place sounds like a barn. A very very big barn. It has enough sound deadening to keep it from being absolutely abysmal, but I can't believe it's actually good. (Haven't heard a show there, just loaded one in. So maybe I'm wrong. But . . . man I find that hard to believe.)
I stand corrected on an earlier claim I made about closed roof facilities, though I wouldn't exactly classify SoFi Stadium as a closed roof facility, because it's more of a canopy than a roof - the stadium is basically an open air facility with a giant transparent umbrella over it. When I think of closed roof facilities, I'm talking about stadiums that are entirely indoors and fully climate-controlled. U.S. Bank Stadium and Allegiant Stadium would both fit that description, but SoFi does not. That said, the reason I didn't think about any of those three recent stadiums with fixed roofs is because all of them allow in a ton of natural light, either through the roof itself (Allegiant and SoFi) or through a gigantic glass wall on one side of the stadium (U.S. Bank).gary kreie wrote: ↑Aug 21, 2022On rating the best stadiums, I'm not sure there is a big difference in the core of any NFL stadiums nowadays -- it's not like there are poles blocking the view anywhere. Newer stadiums probably have slightly wider walkways or (now) bigger video scoreboards. Stadium raters usually cite the atmosphere and put Lambeau (and Busch) at or near the top -- even though physically they may not the most comfortable or have the best sight lines. The Jerry Dome has original paintings in the concourses. I guess that is a big plus for some folks.
But how far are the seats from the field? Kroenke wanted us to tear down the entire East half of the dome and rebuild it further from the field! The Arbitration board agreed that would be an upgrade because the seats in the Jerry Dome in Dallas are further from the field than seats in our dome. And Kroenke insisted on a lid that opened and closed, but then built a stadium in LA with a non-opening lid. In fact, of the 6 new NFL stadiums built in the last 12 years, only the Atlanta stadium has a roof that opens and closes. And teams with stadium roofs that open and close keep them closed at least 70% of the time and some 100%.
I love that Busch is an open air stadium, and our new unbuilt Rams stadium was going to be open air. But I have to admit when we went to Rams playoff games in January years ago, I appreciated having a heated dome out of the weather. I still recall one of the last Rams games hosting Denver and it snowed. And I saw Denver fans looking out the dome windows at the snow. I wondered if they were wishing Mile High had a lid in Decembers.
The Dome is unique in that it was built as a closed roof facility with zero natural light in the stadium bowl. AFAIK, there have only been four dome stadiums ever built for NFL use with absolutely no natural lighting - the other three being the Kingdome, the Superdome, and the Alamodome (which only served as a temporary host stadium for an NFL team for one season in 2005). The Silverdome, Metrodome, RCA Dome, and Georgia Dome all had translucent fabric roofs.
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When the Rams played here, I could never figure out why the dome owners didn't improve the lighting. When I watch a football game on TV in the Atlanta dome with its roof closed, the field is very bright like it's daytime light inside. Whereas our dome, (or dim), looks like they are playing football by candle light or something. They should clearly light up the field, maybe indirectly off the roof, to make it as bright as daylight inside. If they use LED lighting, it would likely be cheaper than the current old lighting in terms of electricity cost.DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Aug 21, 2022I stand corrected on an earlier claim I made about closed roof facilities, though I wouldn't exactly classify SoFi Stadium as a closed roof facility, because it's more of a canopy than a roof - the stadium is basically an open air facility with a giant transparent umbrella over it. When I think of closed roof facilities, I'm talking about stadiums that are entirely indoors and fully climate-controlled. U.S. Bank Stadium and Allegiant Stadium would both fit that description, but SoFi does not. That said, the reason I didn't think about any of those three recent stadiums with fixed roofs is because all of them allow in a ton of natural light, either through the roof itself (Allegiant and SoFi) or through a gigantic glass wall on one side of the stadium (U.S. Bank).gary kreie wrote: ↑Aug 21, 2022On rating the best stadiums, I'm not sure there is a big difference in the core of any NFL stadiums nowadays -- it's not like there are poles blocking the view anywhere. Newer stadiums probably have slightly wider walkways or (now) bigger video scoreboards. Stadium raters usually cite the atmosphere and put Lambeau (and Busch) at or near the top -- even though physically they may not the most comfortable or have the best sight lines. The Jerry Dome has original paintings in the concourses. I guess that is a big plus for some folks.
But how far are the seats from the field? Kroenke wanted us to tear down the entire East half of the dome and rebuild it further from the field! The Arbitration board agreed that would be an upgrade because the seats in the Jerry Dome in Dallas are further from the field than seats in our dome. And Kroenke insisted on a lid that opened and closed, but then built a stadium in LA with a non-opening lid. In fact, of the 6 new NFL stadiums built in the last 12 years, only the Atlanta stadium has a roof that opens and closes. And teams with stadium roofs that open and close keep them closed at least 70% of the time and some 100%.
I love that Busch is an open air stadium, and our new unbuilt Rams stadium was going to be open air. But I have to admit when we went to Rams playoff games in January years ago, I appreciated having a heated dome out of the weather. I still recall one of the last Rams games hosting Denver and it snowed. And I saw Denver fans looking out the dome windows at the snow. I wondered if they were wishing Mile High had a lid in Decembers.
The Dome is unique in that it was built as a closed roof facility with zero natural light in the stadium bowl. AFAIK, there have only been four dome stadiums ever built for NFL use with absolutely no natural lighting - the other three being the Kingdome, the Superdome, and the Alamodome (which only served as a temporary host stadium for an NFL team for one season in 2005). The Silverdome, Metrodome, RCA Dome, and Georgia Dome all had translucent fabric roofs.
I think every domed football stadium after the TWA/Ed Jones Dome learned the lesson to "not do that ever again".
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The game with near daylight level lighting in the new Georgia Dome I was referencing was a night game. They just had far brighter field lighting than does our dome. (Or The Dim).dweebe wrote:The old Georgia Dome was built with a different roof because they didn't have to build for a 100 year snow event like St. Louis. So daytime games there had more light.gary kreie wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2022When the Rams played here, I could never figure out why the dome owners didn't improve the lighting. When I watch a football game on TV in the Atlanta dome with its roof closed, the field is very bright like it's daytime light inside. Whereas our dome, (or dim), looks like they are playing football by candle light or something. They should clearly light up the field, maybe indirectly off the roof, to make it as bright as daylight inside. If they use LED lighting, it would likely be cheaper than the current old lighting in terms of electricity cost.DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Aug 21, 2022I stand corrected on an earlier claim I made about closed roof facilities, though I wouldn't exactly classify SoFi Stadium as a closed roof facility, because it's more of a canopy than a roof - the stadium is basically an open air facility with a giant transparent umbrella over it. When I think of closed roof facilities, I'm talking about stadiums that are entirely indoors and fully climate-controlled. U.S. Bank Stadium and Allegiant Stadium would both fit that description, but SoFi does not. That said, the reason I didn't think about any of those three recent stadiums with fixed roofs is because all of them allow in a ton of natural light, either through the roof itself (Allegiant and SoFi) or through a gigantic glass wall on one side of the stadium (U.S. Bank).
The Dome is unique in that it was built as a closed roof facility with zero natural light in the stadium bowl. AFAIK, there have only been four dome stadiums ever built for NFL use with absolutely no natural lighting - the other three being the Kingdome, the Superdome, and the Alamodome (which only served as a temporary host stadium for an NFL team for one season in 2005). The Silverdome, Metrodome, RCA Dome, and Georgia Dome all had translucent fabric roofs.
The newer Mercedes Benz Dome has huge windows. So even then the roof is closed (like 80% of the time) there's still more light.
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It's still Hall #6.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Sep 07, 2022Can we get back on topic with the convention center expansion?
But fine, I'll shut up and delete my posts.
^ I wasn’t even talking to you. No need to take it so personally.
God forbid some of us come here for updates on the convention center project instead of a discussion about nonexistent Super Bowls and indoor stadium acoustics.
God forbid some of us come here for updates on the convention center project instead of a discussion about nonexistent Super Bowls and indoor stadium acoustics.
Yes you were.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Sep 07, 2022^ I wasn’t even talking to you. No need to take it so personally.
God forbid some of us come here for updates on the convention center project instead of a discussion about nonexistent Super Bowls and indoor stadium acoustics.
Going forward no more Dome talk at all: just convention center halls 1-5. The rules have been laid down by sc4mayor.
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Let's stop with the drama -- dome discussion should absolutely be fair game.
St. Louis isn't doing enough with this convention center expansion and we all know it. The dome's future is a giant question mark.
Would St. Louis get more out of renovating it or dozing it for expanded ballroom space and alternative uses?
The question of what is going to be the best investment for St. Louis is an important one, and it belongs in this thread.
St. Louis isn't doing enough with this convention center expansion and we all know it. The dome's future is a giant question mark.
Would St. Louis get more out of renovating it or dozing it for expanded ballroom space and alternative uses?
The question of what is going to be the best investment for St. Louis is an important one, and it belongs in this thread.
A new convention HQ hotel is the next investment I would pick.RockChalkSTL wrote:Let's stop with the drama -- dome discussion should absolutely be fair game.
St. Louis isn't doing enough with this convention center expansion and we all know it. The dome's future is a giant question mark.
Would St. Louis get more out of renovating it or dozing it for expanded ballroom space and alternative uses?
The question of what is going to be the best investment for St. Louis is an important one, and it belongs in this thread.