City vs Rams Lawsuit

dweebe · PostApr 20, 2022#50262022-04-20T13:23+00:00

AJ1289 wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
In all honesty, I think the region has a better shot at attracting an expansion or relocated NBA over the NFL. Given the drama and payout that StanK gave to the region and the bitter feelings/burned bridges we've set here regarding the NFL, we could convert that energy to playing for a possible NBA expansion team or a serious relocation threat. I've mentioned this previously in the "NBA in STL" thread, but to me, the NBA is the prime example of a pro sports league with global market appeal which I think this region definitely needs. I would also welcome the NFL with open arms should that wistful dream turn into some sort of reality but it would have to be under the right conditions - privately funded stadium, ownership with strong STL/regional ties to prevent future movement, commitment to surrounding developments wherever the stadium is located, XFL/NFL sharing the same space, etc.

Wrong thread but we're not getting an NBA team.
1) Seattle is getting one as they now have an arena and never should have lost the Sonics in the first place.
2) Las Vegas is getting one as they're building a $2 billion complex south of the strip.
3) The NBA blocked the Grizzlies move here.
4) The Enterprise Center is not a two sport building and the city doesn't have $600+ million to build a new arena.

pdm_ad · PostApr 20, 2022#50272022-04-20T13:32+00:00

^ Agree, I wouldn't think we get any additional major pro teams until we add about 1M in population. And that ain't happening anytime soon.

dweebe · PostApr 20, 2022#50282022-04-20T13:53+00:00

pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
^ Agree, I wouldn't think we get any additional major pro teams until we add about 1M in population. And that ain't happening anytime soon.

St. Louis could handle another pro team (NFL or NBA) if the Cardinals weren't the attendance monster they are. Them drawing 3+ million fans every year smothered the Rams and would kill an NBA team in the cradle. If the Cardinals drew like an average team (Twins, Indians/Guardians, Mariners, Pirates etc) we could support 3 teams like those similarly sized markets.

rbb · PostApr 20, 2022#50292022-04-20T14:31+00:00

pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
^ Agree, I wouldn't think we get any additional major pro teams until we add about 1M in population. And that ain't happening anytime soon.

The Denver MSA has a population of 2.8m people and has no problem supporting MLB, NHL, NFL, NBA and MLS teams. Certainly the STL area can support MLB, NHL, MLS and the NBA.

-RBB

PostApr 20, 2022#50302022-04-20T14:44+00:00

dweebe wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
^ Agree, I wouldn't think we get any additional major pro teams until we add about 1M in population. And that ain't happening anytime soon.
St. Louis could handle another pro team (NFL or NBA) if the Cardinals weren't the attendance monster they are. Them drawing 3+ million fans every year smothered the Rams and would kill an NBA team in the cradle. If the Cardinals drew like an average team (Twins, Indians/Guardians, Mariners, Pirates etc) we could support 3 teams like those similarly sized markets.

No, the Cardinals did not 'smother' Rams attendance in the slightest. The Rams sold out the dome every single game for years while the Cardinals were drawing 3m+ until the Rams' owner intentionally tanked the team.
-RBB

dweebe · PostApr 20, 2022#50312022-04-20T14:58+00:00

rbb wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
dweebe wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
^ Agree, I wouldn't think we get any additional major pro teams until we add about 1M in population. And that ain't happening anytime soon.
St. Louis could handle another pro team (NFL or NBA) if the Cardinals weren't the attendance monster they are. Them drawing 3+ million fans every year smothered the Rams and would kill an NBA team in the cradle. If the Cardinals drew like an average team (Twins, Indians/Guardians, Mariners, Pirates etc) we could support 3 teams like those similarly sized markets.
No, the Cardinals did not 'smother' Rams attendance in the slightest. The Rams sold out the dome every single game for years while the Cardinals were drawing 3m+ until the Rams' owner intentionally tanked the team.
-RBB

Maybe the Cardinals didn't smother, but they made it hard to breathe. I attended 6, 7 or 8 home Rams games a year. If I missed one it was because I was traveling for work. I saw the empty seats in the corners and the 300 level as well as the unsold/dark suites on the 200 level.

The sports entertainment dollar in a market is a finite thing and people/businesses would rather go to Busch to see a relatively good chance of seeing a winner or at least an exciting game. It just sucks that the Cardinals hot streak 2006-2011 coincided with the worst stretch of any team in NFL history with the Rams.

framer · PostApr 20, 2022#50322022-04-20T16:20+00:00

After witnessing St. Louis beat the Rams in court, it amazes me that the Buffalo Bills were still able to fleece the taxpayers of New York state. Their $850 million subsidy has been universally condemned as one of the worst deals in history.

Colin Marc · PostApr 20, 2022#50332022-04-20T16:29+00:00

How could the Cardinals hurt the Rams attendance when these two sports barley overlap. Baseball is a spring, summer and a tiny bit of fall, while football is a fall, winter sports, make it make sense Sway!

pdm_ad · PostApr 20, 2022#50342022-04-20T16:32+00:00

rbb wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
^ Agree, I wouldn't think we get any additional major pro teams until we add about 1M in population. And that ain't happening anytime soon.
The Denver MSA has a population of 2.8m people and has no problem supporting MLB, NHL, NFL, NBA and MLS teams. Certainly the STL area can support MLB, NHL, MLS and the NBA.

-RBB

I don't think the issue is whether STL could support another major pro franchise and it's a different scenario than comparing a city that already has a franchise for this reason: STL would need to lure a team from out of town since both the NBA and NFL don't appear to be expanding anytime soon. There are larger or faster growing markets without teams in both of those sports that would likely be more appealing to potential franchise owners. Market size or potential is one of the biggest factors when considering franchise valuation, we witnessed that with the Rams move.
Plus, I have seen several articles which seem to suggest that Denver is stretched to the limit, not recent but to that point:

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news ... l?page=all

dweebe · PostApr 20, 2022#50352022-04-20T16:57+00:00

Colin Marc wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
How could the Cardinals hurt the Rams attendance when these two sports barley overlap. Baseball is a spring, summer and a tiny bit of fall, while football is a fall, winter sports, make it make sense Sway!

Do you not understand what I said? Yes, the seasons don't overlap much, outside of August, September and possibly October. But businesses and people have yearly limits to how much they can spend on sports entertainment.

When the Rams left I put my budget in to Blues season tickets.

goat314 · PostApr 20, 2022#50362022-04-20T17:44+00:00

rbb wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
^ Agree, I wouldn't think we get any additional major pro teams until we add about 1M in population. And that ain't happening anytime soon.
The Denver MSA has a population of 2.8m people and has no problem supporting MLB, NHL, NFL, NBA and MLS teams. Certainly the STL area can support MLB, NHL, MLS and the NBA.

-RBB

Yeah, I seriously don't think how St. Louis couldn't support 3 majors all of a sudden. Pittsburgh and Cleveland are smaller and slow growth, both have 3 teams. Milwaukee, New Orleans, and Buffalo are like half the size of St. Louis and have 2. Denver and Minneapolis are slightly bigger than St. Louis and have all 4, but I admit they are fast growing metros. Tampa just past us this census and have 3. I don't think St. Louis is too small, we still have a huge corporate presence for our size. I think the problem is dysfunctional government and poor civic leadership, but that's the root to a majority of our problems.

Laife Fulk · PostApr 20, 2022#50372022-04-20T18:46+00:00

Just a friendly reminder that this isn't an issue on if St. Louis could support another major sports team, because it definitely could, but rather more of an issue of where do the professional leagues teams want to be. The NFL and NBA have other markets they've identified as being their top tier choices (Seattle & Las Vegas for NBA and international expansion for the NFL).

The only way St. Louis is going to be a realistic target for either league to expand to is if they're looking to expand by more than two teams OR if a potential owner steps up and says "I'm willing to pay a premium to jump the line".

dredger · PostApr 20, 2022#50382022-04-20T18:52+00:00

I will try to swing things back to Ram's lawsuit considering that I contributed to us diving into what could be supported discussion. Anyone have an inkling on when the Settlement funds will be divied up from the escrow account to respective entities, City, County and RSA? Ram's did their part and funds already paid. Any have thoughts if some of the funds will go to cover convention center upgrade cost gap?

All intertwined between Ram's settlement, Convention Space and believe Mayor Jones proposed a big north city investment. I'm assuming the city share of Ram's settlement might be divied up as well. This is not accounting for the RSA share either. Which is another question, any ideas how RSA will handled its share? I thought Dome bonds have been paid off but could be mistaken.

gone corporate · PostApr 20, 2022#50392022-04-20T19:29+00:00

^AFAIK, there's nothing breaking on the settlement allocations.

Excerpt from a STL Biz Journal article:

The county, city of St. Louis and the entity that owns the Dome at America's Center have not yet decided how to split the roughly $512.6 million settlement.

Source: County OKs bonds for convention center expansion, rec center as costs rise

Spitballing here... STL is beneficiary to a number of public sector allocations, such as the pandemic relief monies. I believe the preponderance of these public monies have sunsets on them, wherein they will be pulled back if not spent by a certain time. Meanwhile, the NFL settlement monies are private sector allocations sitting in an account earning interest (I certainly hope they're getting at least 2%). Therefore, I reasonably guess that the priority is on finding places to plug in the public sector monies before they expire while the confirmed monies are safe in the bank. Again, just a guess. Anyone know better?

dweebe · PostApr 20, 2022#50402022-04-20T19:49+00:00

Somewhat off topic, but Nashville could soon be a 3 pro team town.

PostApr 20, 2022#50412022-04-20T20:04+00:00

goat314 wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
rbb wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
^ Agree, I wouldn't think we get any additional major pro teams until we add about 1M in population. And that ain't happening anytime soon.
The Denver MSA has a population of 2.8m people and has no problem supporting MLB, NHL, NFL, NBA and MLS teams. Certainly the STL area can support MLB, NHL, MLS and the NBA.

-RBB
Yeah, I seriously don't think how St. Louis couldn't support 3 majors all of a sudden. Pittsburgh and Cleveland are smaller and slow growth, both have 3 teams. Milwaukee, New Orleans, and Buffalo are like half the size of St. Louis and have 2. Denver and Minneapolis are slightly bigger than St. Louis and have all 4, but I admit they are fast growing metros. Tampa just past us this census and have 3. I don't think St. Louis is too small, we still have a huge corporate presence for our size. I think the problem is dysfunctional government and poor civic leadership, but that's the root to a majority of our problems.

Again, it's going to sound like I'm making excuses. 2019 MLB attendance:
St. Louis Cardinals: 3.4 million
Pittsburgh Pirates: 1.5 million
Cleveland Indians: 1.7 million
Milwaukee Brewers: 2.9 million
New Orleans and Buffalo: no MLB baseball
Colorado Rockies: 2.8 million
Minnesota Twins: 2.3 million
Tampa Bay Rays: 1.1 million

I don't discount our dysfunction and poor leadership. But the Cardinals are the alpha organization and they're taking all they can because they can.

Plus everyone doesn't count Colorado Springs and their 800,000 people an hour down the road in to Denver's population as it's a different MSA.

pop_scientist · PostApr 20, 2022#50422022-04-20T20:23+00:00

dweebe wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
Somewhat off topic, but Nashville could soon be a 3 pro team town.

4...they have an MLS team.

I always thought that if the Grizzlies left Memphis, they'd probably go to Nashville...that city is growing fast.

dweebe · PostApr 20, 2022#50432022-04-20T20:55+00:00

pop_scientist wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
dweebe wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
Somewhat off topic, but Nashville could soon be a 3 pro team town.

4...they have an MLS team.

I always thought that if the Grizzlies left Memphis, they'd probably go to Nashville...that city is growing fast.

They've had challenges in Memphis but seem to have the team secured through 2029.
https://bealestreetbears.com/2022/04/13 ... agreement/

PostApr 20, 2022#50442022-04-20T21:15+00:00

pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
rbb wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
^ Agree, I wouldn't think we get any additional major pro teams until we add about 1M in population. And that ain't happening anytime soon.
The Denver MSA has a population of 2.8m people and has no problem supporting MLB, NHL, NFL, NBA and MLS teams. Certainly the STL area can support MLB, NHL, MLS and the NBA.

-RBB
I don't think the issue is whether STL could support another major pro franchise and it's a different scenario than comparing a city that already has a franchise for this reason: STL would need to lure a team from out of town since both the NBA and NFL don't appear to be expanding anytime soon. There are larger or faster growing markets without teams in both of those sports that would likely be more appealing to potential franchise owners. Market size or potential is one of the biggest factors when considering franchise valuation, we witnessed that with the Rams move.
Plus, I have seen several articles which seem to suggest that Denver is stretched to the limit, not recent but to that point:

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news ... l?page=all

The Rockies, Broncos, Nuggets and Avalanche have a regional/multi-state coverage area.

PostApr 20, 2022#50452022-04-20T21:15+00:00

pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
rbb wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
^ Agree, I wouldn't think we get any additional major pro teams until we add about 1M in population. And that ain't happening anytime soon.
The Denver MSA has a population of 2.8m people and has no problem supporting MLB, NHL, NFL, NBA and MLS teams. Certainly the STL area can support MLB, NHL, MLS and the NBA.

-RBB
I don't think the issue is whether STL could support another major pro franchise and it's a different scenario than comparing a city that already has a franchise for this reason: STL would need to lure a team from out of town since both the NBA and NFL don't appear to be expanding anytime soon. There are larger or faster growing markets without teams in both of those sports that would likely be more appealing to potential franchise owners. Market size or potential is one of the biggest factors when considering franchise valuation, we witnessed that with the Rams move.
Plus, I have seen several articles which seem to suggest that Denver is stretched to the limit, not recent but to that point:

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news ... l?page=all

The Rockies, Broncos, Nuggets and Avalanche have a regional/multi-state coverage area.

rbb · PostApr 21, 2022#50462022-04-21T21:08+00:00

dweebe wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
rbb wrote: ↑
Apr 20, 2022
The Denver MSA has a population of 2.8m people and has no problem supporting MLB, NHL, NFL, NBA and MLS teams. Certainly the STL area can support MLB, NHL, MLS and the NBA.

-RBB
I don't think the issue is whether STL could support another major pro franchise and it's a different scenario than comparing a city that already has a franchise for this reason: STL would need to lure a team from out of town since both the NBA and NFL don't appear to be expanding anytime soon. There are larger or faster growing markets without teams in both of those sports that would likely be more appealing to potential franchise owners. Market size or potential is one of the biggest factors when considering franchise valuation, we witnessed that with the Rams move.
Plus, I have seen several articles which seem to suggest that Denver is stretched to the limit, not recent but to that point:

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news ... l?page=all
The Rockies, Broncos, Nuggets and Avalanche have a regional/multi-state coverage area.

As do the Cardinals, and to a lesser extent the Blues thanks to KMOX.

-RBB

sc4mayor · PostMay 13, 2022#50472022-05-13T19:52+00:00

‘Under cover of darkness’: The inside story of how the Rams worked the NFL and ditched St. Louis
https://www.stltoday.com/business/local ... 87f9e.html

gone corporate · PostMay 13, 2022#50482022-05-13T20:05+00:00

^Great read there.

Long story short: They're all bastards. They f*cked us from the beginning, they all lied to everyone, and the League only views their fans as potential money.
And, the STL Post-Dispatch has all the paperwork to prove it.

Amazing how the Post-Dispatch was able to get all the documents from the lawsuit, even as the destruction of these documents was considered part of the settlement. Whoever writes the book on this will have an immediate New York Times bestseller.

Still wondering if the Justice Department could inquire for all the fraud that was blatantly committed.

sc4mayor · PostMay 13, 2022#50492022-05-13T20:08+00:00

gone corporate wrote: ↑
May 13, 2022
Long story short: They're all bastards. They f*cked us from the beginning, they all lied to everyone, and the League only views their fans as potential money.
And, the STL Post-Dispatch has all the paperwork to prove it.

Everyone except Mike Brown of the Bengals. Props to him for staying consistently on our side through the whole thing.

RockChalkSTL · PostMay 13, 2022#50502022-05-13T20:34+00:00

I've become disillusioned with the NFL as time has gone on.

I've kind of reinvested my previous love for the Kansas City Chiefs and St. Louis Rams into the St. Louis Blues.

I still watch the Chiefs, but it will never be the same for me.

City vs Rams Lawsuit

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