^ Think Dune maybe. Seriously, we probably waste a lot more water then we used that eventually the dwindling supply will finally force us to give proper value and concern.
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Vegas could exist comfortably on a lot less water than it presently uses. The west generally could. (And it will have to as the water disappears.)
All that said, I do think the growth will slow down. Some of the biggest water losses aren't even irrigation, they're just evaporation off giant lakes in the middle of the desert. As the lakes draw down you lose some recreation, but maybe more importantly, you can't generate as much power. Per the generating industry trade mag Power Lake Powell and Lake Mead are both presently sitting at just over 30% of their storage capacity. That's apparently put their generating capacity off about 25% and 41% respectively. (If I understand this correctly the relationship isn't linear because power generation is dependent on pressure, which is a function of the "hydrostatic head" or elevation of the reservoir above the turbines, not the actual volume of water held. So in your typical V shaped valley you get more power out of the bottom than the top, since the bottom is narrow and fills quickly. I think the percent capacity is an actual percent of the total gallons of water. So the current elevation in terms of feet up the side of the tub might still look closer to three quarters, even if most of the water is already gone.)
Of course this also means that as the water continues to drain the generating capacity will drop off stupid fast from this point forward. I don't think there's a single reservoir at anything like capacity between the Rockies and the Sierra Nevada. I've gone out West pretty regularly over the course of my life. And every time I see it . . . I am stunned. You can't miss it anymore. Just drive past a lake. Any lake. Doesn't even matter. They're all low. Fly over and look down.
They'll find a way to conserve water. They can recycle it. They can get rid of the Bellagio fountains or the pirates cove. They can drain the less important lakes. They can build waste water reclamation plants like Singapore. They can store drinking water underground, or possibly even ship it in from elsewhere. But can they ever replace the cheap power? And how does Vegas look with a fraction of the lights. Or more importantly, with less air conditioning?
All that said, I do think the growth will slow down. Some of the biggest water losses aren't even irrigation, they're just evaporation off giant lakes in the middle of the desert. As the lakes draw down you lose some recreation, but maybe more importantly, you can't generate as much power. Per the generating industry trade mag Power Lake Powell and Lake Mead are both presently sitting at just over 30% of their storage capacity. That's apparently put their generating capacity off about 25% and 41% respectively. (If I understand this correctly the relationship isn't linear because power generation is dependent on pressure, which is a function of the "hydrostatic head" or elevation of the reservoir above the turbines, not the actual volume of water held. So in your typical V shaped valley you get more power out of the bottom than the top, since the bottom is narrow and fills quickly. I think the percent capacity is an actual percent of the total gallons of water. So the current elevation in terms of feet up the side of the tub might still look closer to three quarters, even if most of the water is already gone.)
Of course this also means that as the water continues to drain the generating capacity will drop off stupid fast from this point forward. I don't think there's a single reservoir at anything like capacity between the Rockies and the Sierra Nevada. I've gone out West pretty regularly over the course of my life. And every time I see it . . . I am stunned. You can't miss it anymore. Just drive past a lake. Any lake. Doesn't even matter. They're all low. Fly over and look down.
They'll find a way to conserve water. They can recycle it. They can get rid of the Bellagio fountains or the pirates cove. They can drain the less important lakes. They can build waste water reclamation plants like Singapore. They can store drinking water underground, or possibly even ship it in from elsewhere. But can they ever replace the cheap power? And how does Vegas look with a fraction of the lights. Or more importantly, with less air conditioning?
Personally, I think water is more of a problem than energy. The new-generation nuclear power plants are almost here, but the water-wars are just starting.
Side hustle for City Water Dept:
A railroad tank car has an avg capacity of 25,000 gallons.
Sell water for 10 cents a gallon.
A hundred car ‘water express’ grosses $250K. Buyer pays shipping
Trains leave daily.
A railroad tank car has an avg capacity of 25,000 gallons.
Sell water for 10 cents a gallon.
A hundred car ‘water express’ grosses $250K. Buyer pays shipping
Trains leave daily.
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If Dave Steward wanted to be an NBA owner, StL would have a team tomorrow.
Hey guys, first time poster but huge fan of the forum! Just wanted to provide a couple observations here (may have already been brought up):
1) To me, the future seems to lie with a league like the NBA, which has incredibly large appeal not just in North America but worldwide. Think of the number of superstar NBA players we can name off the top of our heads and then take that list to someone in East Asia or Europe and see how many of the same stars you both named. If you were to use that same approach with a league like the NFL which has incredible appeal and fanbases in North America but limited to expats who casually watch the season in their respective countries, it becomes quite small (unless you manage to bump into a large group of Raiders fans in Madrid
). The fact here is that a league like the NBA has been well positioned for global growth for many years now and it won't stop anytime soon. For the NFL, they will certainly gain a global audience but the market penetration will be limited to casual followers or expats.
2) Going off of the first observation, having a NBA team in STL would boost the recognition of this city and region to a much wider and far-reaching audience, many of whom live in areas that we would welcome interest and investments from, such as the MENA and East Asia regions. Not just that, but annual revenues continue to grow (even though there was a slip the past couple years owing to COVID) and the ever-growing streaming options to watch NBA games only help to lure in more eyes to watch the action, which will lure in more advertisers willing to shell out more money for airtime and vice versa. This would put us in a strategic spot as we can take advantage of the global growth and recognition of the NBA to cast a positive spotlight on our region.
3) The roster of stars in the NBA over the past 10-20 years (post-Jordan) have only helped to fuel the popularity of the sport worldwide, spawning numerous professional basketball leagues across the world and exciting new generations to play the game. This could be used to our advantage if we had a NBA team in town with a potential star or stars. Imagine the level of recognition and attention our region would attract if we had a star like Damian Lillard or Kevin Durant playing for a STL NBA team. Forget Dame, just think of the attention or recognition we could've had if Jayson Tatum or Bradley Beal had their success here in STL playing for a NBA team here as homegrown talents instead of playing for the Celtics or Wizards.
4) The league remains popular worldwide and continues to draw a young and diverse crowd, which is what we would want to have for our region. The same can't really be said for MLB or NHL, which struggles with attracting younger audiences (MLB) or a more diverse viewership (NHL). The NFL won't be returning to STL anytime soon (at least not till Goodell, Jones or Kroenke are still in the league) and while the addition of a MLS is fantastic, I think the NBA would be an awesome addition to our rich and storied sports legacy as a city/region, and it would possibly draw a younger, diverse set of eyes to our region and help to highlight the incredible positives we have here.
5) The Enterprise Center would be in full use for a majority of the year and if a team were to be established here with a decent amount of success, it would help to create additional development around the Enterprise Center/Union Station areas, bringing in new investment and infill that the area would benefit from. Not to mention, this in turn could lead to an expansion of the Enterprise Center to accommodate a potentially larger crowd that would come to watch the NBA games in town. Who wouldn't want to see Lebron play in STL 2-4x a year or see Luka Doncic light it up in STL (assuming our team stinks loll)? Not just that, but we can form rivalries with other nearby teams like Indy, Chicago or Memphis to name a few, which would help grow and widen the fanbase here, thus leading to more people visiting STL!
I may be rambling above but I think we shouldn't completely rule out a possibility of the NBA expanding here. This would mean that we would need to have a unified push to court the NBA here and not be caught up in competing priorities like we're often known for, along with an ownership group intent on keeping a team here for good and working to grow the game and fanbase here. These are tall orders, but nothing that we couldn't accomplish if we stick to the end goal. I think this would be a great add to our region here and will help to expand our name worldwide.
1) To me, the future seems to lie with a league like the NBA, which has incredibly large appeal not just in North America but worldwide. Think of the number of superstar NBA players we can name off the top of our heads and then take that list to someone in East Asia or Europe and see how many of the same stars you both named. If you were to use that same approach with a league like the NFL which has incredible appeal and fanbases in North America but limited to expats who casually watch the season in their respective countries, it becomes quite small (unless you manage to bump into a large group of Raiders fans in Madrid
). The fact here is that a league like the NBA has been well positioned for global growth for many years now and it won't stop anytime soon. For the NFL, they will certainly gain a global audience but the market penetration will be limited to casual followers or expats.2) Going off of the first observation, having a NBA team in STL would boost the recognition of this city and region to a much wider and far-reaching audience, many of whom live in areas that we would welcome interest and investments from, such as the MENA and East Asia regions. Not just that, but annual revenues continue to grow (even though there was a slip the past couple years owing to COVID) and the ever-growing streaming options to watch NBA games only help to lure in more eyes to watch the action, which will lure in more advertisers willing to shell out more money for airtime and vice versa. This would put us in a strategic spot as we can take advantage of the global growth and recognition of the NBA to cast a positive spotlight on our region.
3) The roster of stars in the NBA over the past 10-20 years (post-Jordan) have only helped to fuel the popularity of the sport worldwide, spawning numerous professional basketball leagues across the world and exciting new generations to play the game. This could be used to our advantage if we had a NBA team in town with a potential star or stars. Imagine the level of recognition and attention our region would attract if we had a star like Damian Lillard or Kevin Durant playing for a STL NBA team. Forget Dame, just think of the attention or recognition we could've had if Jayson Tatum or Bradley Beal had their success here in STL playing for a NBA team here as homegrown talents instead of playing for the Celtics or Wizards.
4) The league remains popular worldwide and continues to draw a young and diverse crowd, which is what we would want to have for our region. The same can't really be said for MLB or NHL, which struggles with attracting younger audiences (MLB) or a more diverse viewership (NHL). The NFL won't be returning to STL anytime soon (at least not till Goodell, Jones or Kroenke are still in the league) and while the addition of a MLS is fantastic, I think the NBA would be an awesome addition to our rich and storied sports legacy as a city/region, and it would possibly draw a younger, diverse set of eyes to our region and help to highlight the incredible positives we have here.
5) The Enterprise Center would be in full use for a majority of the year and if a team were to be established here with a decent amount of success, it would help to create additional development around the Enterprise Center/Union Station areas, bringing in new investment and infill that the area would benefit from. Not to mention, this in turn could lead to an expansion of the Enterprise Center to accommodate a potentially larger crowd that would come to watch the NBA games in town. Who wouldn't want to see Lebron play in STL 2-4x a year or see Luka Doncic light it up in STL (assuming our team stinks loll)? Not just that, but we can form rivalries with other nearby teams like Indy, Chicago or Memphis to name a few, which would help grow and widen the fanbase here, thus leading to more people visiting STL!
I may be rambling above but I think we shouldn't completely rule out a possibility of the NBA expanding here. This would mean that we would need to have a unified push to court the NBA here and not be caught up in competing priorities like we're often known for, along with an ownership group intent on keeping a team here for good and working to grow the game and fanbase here. These are tall orders, but nothing that we couldn't accomplish if we stick to the end goal. I think this would be a great add to our region here and will help to expand our name worldwide.
Welcome, AJ. I like your points. An NBA team will be most welcomed in STL, especially now that the NFL has departed. I'm part of a group of six that travel to see NBA games. We traveled to Indy to check out the Pacers last month and have tickets to see the Grizzlies in Memphis in January. If we can get an ownership group established (Richard Chaifez?) I'm sure STL would be serious contenders.
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I see STL as a second tier contender for an NBA team at the moment. Seattle and Las Vegas would absolutely be next in line for any expansion team, and then Tampa is most likely third (with the NBA even having the Raptors play there during the 20-21 Covid season).
Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see STL land an NBA team, but I'm not going to hold my breath for one anytime soon.
Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see STL land an NBA team, but I'm not going to hold my breath for one anytime soon.
Given how strongly the NBA worked against St. Louis getting the Grizzlies, I don’t see how we could be on any list.
Plus Seattle and Las Vegas have to be far and away numbers 1 and 2.
Plus Seattle and Las Vegas have to be far and away numbers 1 and 2.
I live in Tampa. Tampa is not getting a NBA team with the Orlando Magic an hour down the road. Tampa was about to lose the Lightning before they won the Stanley Cup and there is a good chance that the Rays will be leaving soon if the region doesn't build them a stadium.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2021I see STL as a second tier contender for an NBA team at the moment. Seattle and Las Vegas would absolutely be next in line for any expansion team, and then Tampa is most likely third (with the NBA even having the Raptors play there during the 20-21 Covid season).
Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see STL land an NBA team, but I'm not going to hold my breath for one anytime soon.
^ Yeah I’d put KC above Tampa. And quite frankly they’d be foolish to give up the revenue that T-Mobile is generating for KCMO.
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KC just lost its last Fortune 500. They aren’t getting sh*t
^ Well, one of their two…I think Seaboard is still based on the Kansas side. Still, I agree. Not much on the corporate side over there.
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I don't think it's impossible. They have a good arena, no NHL competition and regionally KC is in a part of the country where the NBA has a big geographical hole so they would probably be able to draw from more than just there for fans and corporate support. They could easily draw from places like here, Omaha, Des Moines etc.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2021KC just lost its last Fortune 500. They aren’t getting sh*t
Omaha would be a sneaky good one for the NBA I think. They'd be the only show in town, there's a surprisingly good corporate base and there's a lot of medium sized cities in that region right up to the Dakotas with no pro teams they could attract from. NBA has done quite well in those one market towns. The arena isn't too bad either.
NBA isn't coming here. The Blues alone will put a halt to that.
Don't get the fascination with Vegas. Theres a good chance it'll have 5 pro teams soon. Even with the tourists there's no way it can stomach all that although I suspect it might be the NHL that ended up squeezed out there as opposed to the NBA or NFL.
New Orleans, Portland and Orlando have one F500 company. Oklahoma City, Sacramento, and Salt Lake City have none. So, it's not a complete deal breaker.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2021KC just lost its last Fortune 500. They aren’t getting sh*t
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Thought this was interesting:
NBA Targets Additional Growth
https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/J ... rowth.aspx
In addition, teams increasingly are turning to the sports betting category, not just for more revenue, but for fan engagement as teams like the Suns and the Washington Wizards add sportsbooks in their arenas.
While the NBA has been allowing teams to make more moves, it’s also looking at its own, leaguewide efforts to drive fan engagement. Brooks, who leads the NBA’s innovation strategy, said the league is still studying whether to create an in-season tournament, but put no timetable on a decision. The idea is to produce more meaningful games at a time of the season when viewership can traditionally soften.
“We have had a continued focus on how to make our basketball products more engaging to fans and that is one avenue,” she said. “Absolutely we are continuing to look at it.”
NBA Targets Additional Growth
https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/J ... rowth.aspx
In addition, teams increasingly are turning to the sports betting category, not just for more revenue, but for fan engagement as teams like the Suns and the Washington Wizards add sportsbooks in their arenas.
While the NBA has been allowing teams to make more moves, it’s also looking at its own, leaguewide efforts to drive fan engagement. Brooks, who leads the NBA’s innovation strategy, said the league is still studying whether to create an in-season tournament, but put no timetable on a decision. The idea is to produce more meaningful games at a time of the season when viewership can traditionally soften.
“We have had a continued focus on how to make our basketball products more engaging to fans and that is one avenue,” she said. “Absolutely we are continuing to look at it.”
On that note: Couldn't they put a stadium on the riverfront near Lumier and still have sportsbetting?
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You'd be better off trying to get a casino built next to Enterprise. STL doesn't need another ~20k arena.
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Yeah - that's true. I guess my point was more along the lines of... what is the NBA actually looking for? If, 'sports betting' is that important and Vegas, with its small TV and ticket market, is a #1-#2 ranked location... that is easily resolved with a riverfront stadium?
I'm still struggling to see why Vegas is ranked so high?
Seattle is sexy, growing fast, and has the market, I get that one.
I'm still struggling to see why Vegas is ranked so high?
Seattle is sexy, growing fast, and has the market, I get that one.
You might be right and it could be too much too fast for Vegas. But even if an Vegas NBA game is half full, that might not matter as gambling will more than make up for it.Suburban Sprawl wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2021Don't get the fascination with Vegas. Theres a good chance it'll have 5 pro teams soon. Even with the tourists there's no way it can stomach all that although I suspect it might be the NHL that ended up squeezed out there as opposed to the NBA or NFL.
Plus I think traveling fans are a heavy draw. The Broncos/Raiders game in Vegas this last weekend was jarring as it sounded like it was in Denver even though the team is sub .500 and pretty much out of the playoff hunt.
Have to agree with everyone, Seattle and Las Vegas undoubtly go to places.
I still believe St. Louis has legit shot as 2nd tier choice. However, I absolutely believe it would have to be in conjunction with a backoffice/gym/locker expansion of the Enterprise Arena & Development Plan. Really not an issue on the arena itself. With Old Muni courts & surface lots to the east, space to the south and a garage that can easily replaced to the west their is no reason why space can't be added and a mini bball village of more downtown residential and rooms be added into the mix. Of course, the idea of Enterprise backoffice/locker room expansion using Rams Settlement funds is competing with my 2022 go for broke West County sports prediction.
Plus, I think the city could easily brand Clark Ave as the nations sport avenue as you could walk down it and touch MLB, NHL, future NBA and MLS as well as during a chunk of the year you would have the possibility of three different pro teams in action. Not on par with Vegas Strip but could easily market a very strong game day/family weekend get away for visiting fans.
I still believe St. Louis has legit shot as 2nd tier choice. However, I absolutely believe it would have to be in conjunction with a backoffice/gym/locker expansion of the Enterprise Arena & Development Plan. Really not an issue on the arena itself. With Old Muni courts & surface lots to the east, space to the south and a garage that can easily replaced to the west their is no reason why space can't be added and a mini bball village of more downtown residential and rooms be added into the mix. Of course, the idea of Enterprise backoffice/locker room expansion using Rams Settlement funds is competing with my 2022 go for broke West County sports prediction.
Plus, I think the city could easily brand Clark Ave as the nations sport avenue as you could walk down it and touch MLB, NHL, future NBA and MLS as well as during a chunk of the year you would have the possibility of three different pro teams in action. Not on par with Vegas Strip but could easily market a very strong game day/family weekend get away for visiting fans.
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Of those cities you mentioned, they collectively have just one team in NFL, MLB, or NHL. Two if you want to count Jacksonville.wabash wrote:New Orleans, Portland and Orlando have one F500 company. Oklahoma City, Sacramento, and Salt Lake City have none. So, it's not a complete deal breaker.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2021KC just lost its last Fortune 500. They aren’t getting sh*t
Kansas City already has two. I don't think NBA will go there.
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I was in Salt Lake City this past week for work and had the opportunity to go see the Jazz play the GSW at the Vivint Arena. It was a sold out crowd and rightfully so given the matchup, but I was also impressed with how well the arena looked after the renovations they did some years back. Granted SLC is a one-sport city presently in a notoriously conservative state, I was impressed with the amount of enthusiastic fans that came out to the game and the activity it generated around the arena. To me, I think this would be an awesome thing to see on a nightly basis in and around Enterprise Center and if we have an ownership group here that commits to investing in a team and the community, I think we will see plenty of new developments in the area surrounding the arena and hopefully see a more dense connection forming between midtown and downtown. One thing I also noticed too is the amount of ad space being devoted to tech companies like ClickUp, Coinbase and some other nationally recognized and growing tech companies, but along with that, they were also devoting ad space to startups and locally grown tech companies as well. This would be a great way to expand and grow our awesome tech startup scene even beyond what it is currently. All in all, great experience at the game and I hope that we can find some way to translate the excitement and viewership to our region. Plenty of positives in my mind and for some of the negatives that I am sure I haven't considered, we would need to have a collective and unified plan of action to have those corrected. Just my two cents here, I would love to see another pro league thrive here and show to the naysayers of the region that we can indeed support multiple professional sports leagues and go in a forward direction.