urbanSTL

Would love to see it happen. I’m a big NBA fan and it’s become a HUGE part of the culture in the US. I think STL would definitely support the team. I mean as long as the team shows they care about winning and are invested in the city, St. Louis will support any sport. Enterprise Center would be a great location, not sure the Blues would want to share the arena and they would need to do an expansion for additional locker rooms and facilities. But if it did happen, a ballpark village style development around Enterprise would become even more feasible. If not Enterpise, it would be interesting to see an arena built in like Downtown Clayton or even Midtown. Aside from the arena though, the only question really who is going to step up to spend the money for a team? I know Chaifetz has expressed interest, but not sure if he has enough money to do it alone however


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CG91 wrote: ↑

Feb 14, 2022

Would love to see it happen. I’m a big NBA fan and it’s become a HUGE part of the culture in the US. I think STL would definitely support the team. I mean as long as the team shows they care about winning and are invested in the city, St. Louis will support any sport. Enterprise Center would be a great location, not sure the Blues would want to share the arena and they would need to do an expansion for additional locker rooms and facilities. But if it did happen, a ballpark village style development around Enterprise would become even more feasible. If not Enterpise, it would be interesting to see an arena built in like Downtown Clayton or even Midtown. Aside from the arena though, the only question really who is going to step up to spend the money for a team? I know Chaifetz has expressed interest, but not sure if he has enough money to do it alone however


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Agree with everything said here.  Also at a loss for who besides Chaifetz would be the one to bring in an NBA team.

Enterprise family and WWT founder already have gone all-in on MLS, don't count on them investing in anything but that.

Google doesn't seem to have a clear answer as to the net worth of Chaifetz, so he might not be able to do it on his own.

A Blues style ownership group is a possibility?  But then you're looking for a lot of medium sized locals with the same plan vs just 1 big one.

Centene CEO Michael F. Neidorff is rated at $550M net worth, but with Centene signaling they want "out" of the STL market eventually, I doubt we'd see any help from him.

EDIT: Found a listing of Missouri billionaires. https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local ... aeee94d5cd

John Morris, founder of Bass Pro Shop, worth $4.3 Billion... St. Louis Anglers join the NBA?

I wish St. Louis could bring in an NBA team, but don't you think the league would require that St. Louis build a new stadium for them? 

Hasn't it been stated that there isn't enough room inside the facility for NBA and NHL? 

^Not necessarily. I would argue that there's a majority of teams presently in the NBA that share space with another professional team (most of them being the NHL), but I think the hang up here would be to expand Enterprise Center to accommodate the required space needed by home and visiting teams for locker rooms and possibly other requirements. My thought here is that if it is possible to move some of the required facilities or spaces to an offsite practice facility or arena, the possible expansion costs for Enterprise would be cut down by quite some amount, thus making an expansion of the current space much more feasible to a prospective team owner. You could even package the expansion of EC into the overall NBA league expansion fees, this way we can guarantee that the EC would be brought to NBA standards. I might be way too wishful in thinking that could happen, but worth an debate in my eyes. 

One question I had for the group here: with respect to present-day naming rights, is it the Blues ownership that take in the lion's share of the annual payments or is there a split among various entities involved? I would imagine that could be a sticky situation if another pro team started sharing space with the Blues, but hopefully it doesn't devolve into what went down with the Browns and Indians when the Indians moved to their new baseball stadium and took with them the advertising revenue simply because Art Modell was a cheapskate.

Biggest issue isn’t the arena, it’s that there are other cities higher on the NBA’s list of prospective expansion locations. Unless the league expands by 4+ teams, I don’t see St. Louis having a great chance.

I think Seattle, Las Vegas, and Nashville are all ahead of St. Louis. Kansas City is another city that could edge St. Louis, but really feels to be in the same boat. 

That said, it really wouldn't shock me if most of the pro leagues went to forty teams over the next several decades. 

The problem with NBA is that you really don't need more than four teams in any given season. It's such a top-heavy league that I actually think they could improve their product and their competitive balance by wiping out about a third of the league and reducing to just twenty teams. Of course, the dollars don't agree with me and so they'd never do that. 
 

Yeah.  It's honestly not worth rehashing the debate as to who is exactly where on the current list of potential expansion cities, but there's an obvious top tier (Seattle & Las Vegas) then a second tier of cities that have all been listed/debated somewhere in the past 10 pages of this thread (Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Nashville, Vancouver, Louisville, Tampa, San Diego, St. Louis, etc).  NBA2STL? Maybe someday, but not any time in the near future.

CG91 wrote: ↑

Feb 14, 2022

Would love to see it happen. I’m a big NBA fan and it’s become a HUGE part of the culture in the US. I think STL would definitely support the team. I mean as long as the team shows they care about winning and are invested in the city, St. Louis will support any sport. Enterprise Center would be a great location, not sure the Blues would want to share the arena and they would need to do an expansion for additional locker rooms and facilities. But if it did happen, a ballpark village style development around Enterprise would become even more feasible. If not Enterpise, it would be interesting to see an arena built in like Downtown Clayton or even Midtown. Aside from the arena though, the only question really who is going to step up to spend the money for a team? I know Chaifetz has expressed interest, but not sure if he has enough money to do it alone however


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I don't think Chaifetz' pockets are quite that deep... NBA supposedly is looking at a $2.5 Billion expansion fee for new teams.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba- ... er-report/

dweebe wrote: ↑

Feb 15, 2022

DTGstl314 wrote: ↑

Feb 15, 2022

KansasCitian wrote: ↑

Feb 14, 2022

I wish St. Louis could bring in an NBA team, but don't you think the league would require that St. Louis build a new stadium for them? 

Hasn't it been stated that there isn't enough room inside the facility for NBA and NHL? 

Why would that be the case?

There are a gazillion other comparably sized arenas throughout the country that serve as home to both an NBA team and an NHL team... United Center, Crypto.com Arena (f/k/a Staples Center), Madison Square Garden all come to mind just off the top of my head.

It's not a question of seats in the building but the back of house areas. Enterprise is already at it's limit back of house and there's nowhere to expand.

United Center: 960,000 sq ft with a huge Bulls office/gym addition to the east side.
Crypto Center: 950,000 sq ft
MSG: 820,000 sq ft 
Enterprise Center: 650,000 sq ft

Yes, there are other arenas around the size of Enterprise that have both NBA and NHL teams (Dallas, Denver) but they were built for that purpose and didn't compromise on layout.  When they built Enterprise wedged in to where it's at (attached to the Kiel/Stifel theater/big money making for the City garage on the other) they made some pretty big compromises that limit flexibility. Plus the size of the Dallas and Denver arenas don't include the office buildings attached to them.

If you really want an NBA team here, this would be my plan.
1) Tear down the City Civil Courts/Dept of Health building on Market. Build a new garage with street level retail.
2)Tear down the Kiel Garage. Put the all the NBA and Blues offices/other needs over there along with new loading docks for Enterprise.

Plenty of vacant space to expand on across 14th Street.

DTGstl314 wrote: ↑

Feb 15, 2022

KansasCitian wrote: ↑

Feb 14, 2022

I think Seattle, Las Vegas, and Nashville are all ahead of St. Louis. Kansas City is another city that could edge St. Louis, but really feels to be in the same boat. 

That said, it really wouldn't shock me if most of the pro leagues went to forty teams over the next several decades. 

The problem with NBA is that you really don't need more than four teams in any given season. It's such a top-heavy league that I actually think they could improve their product and their competitive balance by wiping out about a third of the league and reducing to just twenty teams. Of course, the dollars don't agree with me and so they'd never do that. 
 

In terms of facilities, Vegas and Seattle have to be the leading contenders - T-Mobile Arena is barely 5 years old, and Climate Pledge Arena just opened this year. And they were both designed specifically to eventually host NBA franchises.

I'd agree, Seattle would definitely get the first look at a new team expanding there given the Sonics still having their history, titles and legacy relatively fresh in the minds of residents there. Vegas would likely be a second expansion site, especially since the NFL and NHL have had success in maintaining teams there, plus the allure and expansion of sports betting there. From there, I could see STL making a case for a possible third expansion team to be placed here. KC would also make a strong case, but my major concern is the proximity of KC to Lawrence, where KU basketball dominates consistently and would continue to do so from a viewership or marketing standpoint. Not to say that KC couldn't support a NBA team there, just a concern I think would warrant a second thought. Nashville would make sense if it weren't for the fact that Memphis already has a team present there, and I would expect some pushback from the Grizzlies ownership over market coverage. Same sort of argument could also be made for Pittsburgh (close-ish proximity to Cleveland) and Tampa (close proximity to Orlando), as well as Louisville (close proximity to Indy) or Cincy (same issue).

As far as expansion is concerned for EC, I may be in the minority here, but really if we want to make this a great all purpose venue with adaptable configurations for any event, both garages would need to be torn down. Maybe create a new parking garage on the other side of Clark where the parking lot currently exists, but that would cut off the view of EC from the highway (which I do like seeing when driving through downtown). Or perhaps on the other side of 14th? You could build out a garage to house not only game time attendees but also for City Hall employees as well and possibly attach a pedestrian bridge. 

dweebe wrote: ↑

Feb 15, 2022

wabash wrote: ↑

Feb 15, 2022

dweebe wrote: ↑

Feb 15, 2022

It's not a question of seats in the building but the back of house areas. Enterprise is already at it's limit back of house and there's nowhere to expand.

United Center: 960,000 sq ft with a huge Bulls office/gym addition to the east side.
Crypto Center: 950,000 sq ft
MSG: 820,000 sq ft 
Enterprise Center: 650,000 sq ft

Yes, there are other arenas around the size of Enterprise that have both NBA and NHL teams (Dallas, Denver) but they were built for that purpose and didn't compromise on layout.  When they built Enterprise wedged in to where it's at (attached to the Kiel/Stifel theater/big money making for the City garage on the other) they made some pretty big compromises that limit flexibility. Plus the size of the Dallas and Denver arenas don't include the office buildings attached to them.

If you really want an NBA team here, this would be my plan.
1) Tear down the City Civil Courts/Dept of Health building on Market. Build a new garage with street level retail.
2)Tear down the Kiel Garage. Put the all the NBA and Blues offices/other needs over there along with new loading docks for Enterprise.

Plenty of vacant space to expand on across 14th Street.

That's fine. I was just trying to get rid of the pedestrian unfriendly, poorly laid out current City Civil Courts/Dept of Health building with it's setbacks and other design flaws.

Either way, in my proposal the Kiel Garage has to go.

It took me a while to figure out what building you meant. I figured you meant to the old Municipal Courts building, but I see you mean 1520 Market, which I think was an old federal office building of some kind before the construction of the Eagleton Courthouse. This stupid building name shuffle confuses me to no end and back again. Anyway . . . 

I think I'd put the garage behind the old Municipal Courts building at 1300 Market. Maybe even build it across both lots to serve City Hall as well. Then you'd have enough garage to get something going in the courthouse itself and replace two surface lots and a garage with one garage and some much better street activation, both old and new. (But I have no bone to pick with the little modernist structure where the Health Department moved. Seems a nice enough building to me.)

And FWIW, the Phoenix NHL issue is more about terrible ownership than it is an actual arena issue (there are two totally perfect NHL worthy venues - neither just want to deal with the Coyotes).

Maybe I'm being too optimistic or naive here, but I was sort of picturing the current USPS facility as being part of a BPV-style development which would also connect Union Station with EC and spur some nightlife/restaurant options for both crowds. I'm sure BPV would still see some post-game activity, but if we were to spur development west of EC, we could find ourselves with a row of options during the NHL/(potential NBA) season to hang out at pre or post games, all up and down Clark. There was a previous poster who mentioned that this could make Clark into a true sports street with developments aimed at attracting crowds for any sporting event taking place at a given night and that would be pretty dope for our region!

One thought I had was that if the USPS were open to moving to another part of the city, we could either raze the entire complex and build up a development aimed at attracting new nightlife or dining options possibly, or a future developer could re-purpose the space to include not just nightlife/dining options but maybe add a mini hockey rink or basketball court for quick pick up games for kids or teens. This way, the expansion could be limited to razing the garages around the arena and using that space to expand out (assuming that'll be enough) and use the USPS space a bit more creatively. The big issue that would still remained unsolved is parking and where we could find alternative areas to accommodate this.

Definitely way up in the clouds here haha, feel free to bring me back down.

Houston just opened a City Foundry style complex at their old USPS Post office downtown called POST.

Includes food, bars, music venues, and a rooftop park.

Outside of Union Station, the immediate surrounding area of Enterprise Center is very underwhelming.  No local restaurants / bars or retail or any public buildings really touching that block.  You've got the old USPS to the west, which takes that whole spot, parking lots for City Hall to the East.  The most boring part of the Gateway Mall to the north, with quite literally just grass and pavement.  And a transit Center to the South, which is great for accessibility, but still no options for anything to do right around Enterprise Center.  All this combined really makes it feel like a dead island with no choice but to head back out of that part of town if you want to keep the night going.

I visited Dallas recently for a Blues game and loved the setup around their stadium.  A BPV style development that leads right up to the entrance of American Airlines Center with bars and restaurants on either side of you.  Made for an awesome pre-game atmosphere.  They had live music and plenty of options for food and drinks without ever leaving the stadium area, all separated from cars making it a pedestrian friendly area.

I know the current setup of Enterprise doesn't allow for something exactly like this given it's layout, but placing something similar (if smaller) on the City Hall Parking lot (extend HOF plaza with a wide elevated crosswalk over 14th Street to make it seamless?) that would allow for options directly on the Stadium's footprint would be such a vast upgrade over what we have now.  Hell, even a biergarten on the patch of grass across from Stifel Theater would be a welcome change.  Or knock down the attached parking Garage and rebuild it as a plaza similar to Dallas but with underground parking or parking stacked on retail.

This is all dreaming and Blues Ownership / City likely isn't looking to spend the money required to make such changes, but as a diehard Blues fan man would it be fun to have that kind of pre-game / post-game atmosphere.



EDIT: The photos didn't load, but here is a link to their website: https://www.posthtx.com/

Okay, let me bat these ideas around a bit. I would love to see the post office better activated. It's such a glorious old building that it's deeply saddening to see the main postal hall sitting so empty. Saigon uses their historic post office, which is similar in size, as a sort of mini-mall and tourist center. Sandwiched between Kiel and Union Station the main PO could serve a similar function while even retaining the postal store. You could put one or more hospitality spaces into the sorting plant and lots of smaller kiosks into the hall, both in the windows and in the middle of the hall. Move the courts and the health department into the old Muni Courts building. Sell the old fed office to Kiel Partners for conversion to entertainment/office space. Build a garage on the lots behind city hall and the court building. Tear down the Kiel garage. Just reorganize all three of those mega-blocks to make more sense. Not even any real need to demo anything important. All the buildings will fit one of the uses. Office for office, court for court, and mall for mall. (The post office is pretty well a small mall anyway.)

There's a series of very important murals inside the main post office. Would be great if more people could see them.

https://livingnewdeal.org/projects/main ... 2429%2C000.

^I like to make excuses to drop off my mail or buy stamps there just to go in and gawk. The lobby is truly something else. And it's not even just the murals, though those are certainly stunning. It's just a great space generally. I would love to have seen it full of activity and buzzing with life.