How do you say that? Any team can move, but where do you want the Blues to go? Kansas City? Houston? Quebec City?KansasCitian wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2021Yeah, it's more likely that St. Louis loses the Blues than gains an NBA team in the next thirty years.
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I don't want the Blues to go anywhere -- and I don't think they're going anywhere.
My post was simply meant to illustrate how truly unlikely I think it is that St. Louis will attract an NBA team.
My post was simply meant to illustrate how truly unlikely I think it is that St. Louis will attract an NBA team.
The Pittsburgh Penguins just got bought for $900 million. Not that the Blues are worth that much, but Tom Stillman and the other Blues owners have to be pleased about their $180 million original investment.
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Probably has to do with Vegas being a (sports) betting capital. Lot of money making opportunities. Gonna be bleak when these new teams lose their shine, though, and the stadiums sit empty regularly. The golden knights are already starting to see attendance dwindle and they’re not even badpattimagee wrote:Just curious... looking at the Nielsen household ratings by area. Why would Las Vegas be such a "slam dunk" over STL?
https://www.lyonspr.com/latest-nielsen-dma-rankings/
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I think there are quite a few pluses going for Vegas, but probably some negatives, too.
I wonder how many more Henry Ruggs III-type incidences we will see over the years. If I had to place a bet on which city is most likely to have a young millionaire athlete make a catastrophically horrible decision, it'd be Vegas.
I wonder how many more Henry Ruggs III-type incidences we will see over the years. If I had to place a bet on which city is most likely to have a young millionaire athlete make a catastrophically horrible decision, it'd be Vegas.
Agree on St Louis being a long shot vs Seattle & Vegas (Oakland A's are scouting new ballpark & wouldn't be surprised if they don't commit soon - so 3 out of 4 majors).dweebe wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2021The Kiel Garage might be a fine idea if they wanted to build something like what the Bulls have on the east side of the United Center with their offices, gyms etc. But do you think the city wants to give up the mountain parking revenue from the Kiel Garage? Probably not even if it did mean an NBA team. Too much cash rolling in there between 80+ events a year at $20/parking spot and daytime revenue.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2021There is a way to fix the space issue- demo the garage and add on and replace the garage on the space on the other side of 14th on the city hall upper lot.
Plus it's other issues like storage, kitchen space, merchandise stores that tearing down the cash cow at Kiel wouldn't solve.
Like I said the Sonics have an easy return to Seattle with their new arena and Las Vegas is ready to roll.
Like DblnSouthCity noted, not a space issue and parking garages are the easiest things to demo and build. What the region might consider is the Regional Sports Authority is about to come into a large bucket of money as per the Rams Settlement. Keeping to the sports theme, split proceeds between City and County. City portion goes to demo Kiel garage, move it to the east side and or to the south, build out the expanded arena facilities - remember their is a lot of NCAA action that comes through as well. NCAA events like Convention events typically draw out of towners, hotel stays and hit local eateries. Keep Investing in these facilities is my two cents
County would probably portion go to bailing out rink that Blues practice in and or push the big Hazelwood sports plex along and or say a down payment for XFL stadium.
^ I know capacity for hockey was reduced (from ~19,200 to 18.096) when the seats were replaced as a part of the renovation, but the Enterprise center website says the arena can hold "nearly 22,000" for basketball. If that config were to be used for an NBA team that would make it the largest arena by capacity in the league.dweebe wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2021The problem is Enterprise is one of the smallest arenas on a sq ft basis. Yes it holds 18,000ish people like pretty much every other arena: but the back of house area is not built to have enough space for both an NHL and NBA team in the building. During the most recent renovations the Blues moved all of their offices over to the basement of the Stifel.rbb wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2021I'm 100% on board with the XFL if it can come back. But I'd put my sports fan weight into vying for an NBA franchise.pattimagee wrote: ↑Nov 29, 2021Now that we're on the other side of this, you gotta hope the XFL finds a way back to market... because the best way to either A. Put a bigger dent in the NFL is to have an incredibly successful XFL team here, or B. lure the NFL back to St. Louis by getting some absolutely silly attendance numbers for XFL games.
There would be a lot of competition for an expansion franchise, with several other viable cities. But should a potential owner with STL ties throw his hat into the ring, St. Louis has a very strong case to make.
- NBA commissioner Silver said for the first time in October that he'd look at expansion, albeit with the qualifier that it's 'not their top priority'.
- If I recall correctly (and this is pulling from the fuzzy back pages of my memory banks), St. Louis is the largest market with only two of the 'big four' leagues
- You've got a still-fairly-fresh sports vacuum to fill in the absence of the NFL. MLS will take some of that, but there's still plenty of fans and/or money to go around.
- Enterprise Center, while not as sexy an option as would be building a new state-of-the-art facility, is a nearly turn-key place to play. And that's a popular setup; 11 current NBA franchises share facilities with NHL teams.
- The Silna contract is no longer an impediment - this shouldn't be downplayed as a reason the NBA bypassed STL in previous relocations & expansions.
-RBB
Most other NHL and NBA arenas are 100,000 to 300,000 sq ft bigger and back-of-house-wise and the Blues are still cramped in Enterprise after the recent upgrades. The space issue was just one of reasons the NBA blocked the Laurie's from moving the Grizzlies here in the early 00's.
If the NBA is going anywhere, it's to Las Vegas and back to Seattle.
Your point re: the back of house is well taken. If Enterprise were to be compared with other arenas shared by the NHL and NBA it would be the smallest by square footage, though not by a lot:
| Arena | Location | NHL Team | NBA Team | NHL Capacity | NBA Capacity | Square Footage |
| Capital One Arena | Washington, D.C. | Washington Capitals | Washington Wizards | 18,506 | 20,356 | 1,020,000 |
| United Center | Chicago, Illinois | Chicago Blackhawks | Chicago Bulls | 19,717 | 20,917 | 960,000 |
| Staples Center | Los Angeles, California | Los Angeles Kings | Los Angeles Lakers Los Angeles Clippers |
18,230 | 18,997 19,068 |
950,000 |
| Little Caesars Arena | Detroit, Michigan | Detroit Red Wings | Detroit Pistons | 19,515 | 20,332 | 885,000 |
| American Airlines Center | Dallas, Texas | Dallas Stars | Dallas Mavericks | 18,532 | 19,200 | 840,000 |
| Madison Square Garden | New York City, New York | New York Rangers | New York Nicks | 18,006 | 19,812 | 820,000 |
| TD Garden | Boston, Massachusetts | Boston Bruins | Boston Celtics | 17,565 | 18,624 | 755,000 |
| Wells Fargo Center | Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Philadelphia Flyers | Philadephia 76ers | 19,543 | 20,478 | 700,000 |
| Ball Arena | Denver, Colorado | Colorado Avalanche | Denver Nuggets | 17,809 | 19,520 | 675,000 |
| Scotiabank Arena | Toronto, Ontario | Toronto Maple Leafs | Toronto Raptors | 18,819 | 19,800 | 665,000 |
| Enterprise Center | St. Louis, Missouri | St. Louis Blues | --- | 18,096 | 22,000 | 664,000 |
Still, based solely on building square footage it doesn't appear to be unusably small. SAP Center, for example, that hosts the San Jose Sharks, is only 440,000 sq ft total - might be a squeeze to fit two teams' worth of stuff there. Do you know something about that area that would make it particularly unsuited to sharing space?
-RBB
Getting off topic but it looks like Oakland A's might even pull off a ballpark on strip if reporting is accurate. Not sure what it would take to pull off such a deal on prime sport but Las Vegas is getting ever closer to having 3 of the 4 major pro teams in the near future.SeattleNative wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2021Probably has to do with Vegas being a (sports) betting capital. Lot of money making opportunities. Gonna be bleak when these new teams lose their shine, though, and the stadiums sit empty regularly. The golden knights are already starting to see attendance dwindle and they’re not even badpattimagee wrote:Just curious... looking at the Nielsen household ratings by area. Why would Las Vegas be such a "slam dunk" over STL?
https://www.lyonspr.com/latest-nielsen-dma-rankings/
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/at ... k-2488711/
^which is interesting because if you asked me what league would do the best in Vegas I would probably have said NBA. It might be the last to the party.
The Sharks arena feels tiny and the roof is low. Imagine Enterprise without the 400 level skyboxes. IIRC it's got parking lots behind the arena so there is space. Though there's talk the Sharks want a new building.rbb wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2021^ I know capacity for hockey was reduced (from ~19,200 to 18.096) when the seats were replaced as a part of the renovation, but the Enterprise center website says the arena can hold "nearly 22,000" for basketball. If that config were to be used for an NBA team that would make it the largest arena by capacity in the league.dweebe wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2021The problem is Enterprise is one of the smallest arenas on a sq ft basis. Yes it holds 18,000ish people like pretty much every other arena: but the back of house area is not built to have enough space for both an NHL and NBA team in the building. During the most recent renovations the Blues moved all of their offices over to the basement of the Stifel.rbb wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2021I'm 100% on board with the XFL if it can come back. But I'd put my sports fan weight into vying for an NBA franchise.
There would be a lot of competition for an expansion franchise, with several other viable cities. But should a potential owner with STL ties throw his hat into the ring, St. Louis has a very strong case to make.
- NBA commissioner Silver said for the first time in October that he'd look at expansion, albeit with the qualifier that it's 'not their top priority'.
- If I recall correctly (and this is pulling from the fuzzy back pages of my memory banks), St. Louis is the largest market with only two of the 'big four' leagues
- You've got a still-fairly-fresh sports vacuum to fill in the absence of the NFL. MLS will take some of that, but there's still plenty of fans and/or money to go around.
- Enterprise Center, while not as sexy an option as would be building a new state-of-the-art facility, is a nearly turn-key place to play. And that's a popular setup; 11 current NBA franchises share facilities with NHL teams.
- The Silna contract is no longer an impediment - this shouldn't be downplayed as a reason the NBA bypassed STL in previous relocations & expansions.
-RBB
Most other NHL and NBA arenas are 100,000 to 300,000 sq ft bigger and back-of-house-wise and the Blues are still cramped in Enterprise after the recent upgrades. The space issue was just one of reasons the NBA blocked the Laurie's from moving the Grizzlies here in the early 00's.
If the NBA is going anywhere, it's to Las Vegas and back to Seattle.
Your point re: the back of house is well taken. If Enterprise were to be compared with other arenas shared by the NHL and NBA it would be the smallest by square footage, though not by a lot:
Arena Location NHL Team NBA Team NHL Capacity NBA Capacity Square Footage Capital One Arena Washington, D.C. Washington Capitals Washington Wizards 18,506 20,356 1,020,000 United Center Chicago, Illinois Chicago Blackhawks Chicago Bulls 19,717 20,917 960,000 Staples Center Los Angeles, California Los Angeles Kings Los Angeles Lakers
Los Angeles Clippers18,230 18,997
19,068950,000 Little Caesars Arena Detroit, Michigan Detroit Red Wings Detroit Pistons 19,515 20,332 885,000 American Airlines Center Dallas, Texas Dallas Stars Dallas Mavericks 18,532 19,200 840,000 Madison Square Garden New York City, New York New York Rangers New York Nicks 18,006 19,812 820,000 TD Garden Boston, Massachusetts Boston Bruins Boston Celtics 17,565 18,624 755,000 Wells Fargo Center Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Philadelphia Flyers Philadephia 76ers 19,543 20,478 700,000 Ball Arena Denver, Colorado Colorado Avalanche Denver Nuggets 17,809 19,520 675,000 Scotiabank Arena Toronto, Ontario Toronto Maple Leafs Toronto Raptors 18,819 19,800 665,000 Enterprise Center St. Louis, Missouri St. Louis Blues --- 18,096 22,000 664,000
Still, based solely on building square footage it doesn't appear to be unusably small. SAP Center, for example, that hosts the San Jose Sharks, is only 440,000 sq ft total - might be a squeeze to fit two teams' worth of stuff there. Do you know something about that area that would make it particularly unsuited to sharing space?
-RBB
That's surprising about Scotiabank: feels/looks bigger. Same with Ball
^ San Jose with a population of a million itself, Google going all in on their downtown campus and plenty of land value still to be had downtown could probably help owners pull off a new Sharks stadium and give enough square feet to make a play for NBA team even though it would be doubtful with Warriors just up the road. But who knows, maybe San Jose makes play for Sac Kings, a team that somehow seems to hang on in the valley (I do have a co worker who is a die hard fan). Heck, wouldn't be surprised if Kings owners are thinking Vegas as well. Having the Kings and Knights play at same arena wouldn't be a surprising outcome IMO
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Whether a play for NBA team or not, I think you could have a pretty good outcome for Enterprise arena and future events if they would find a way to incorporate an expansion of back office/locker room facilities on west side and replacing the garage with a new Old Muni Courts redevelopment including underground/parking garage/tower on the East side. Just not sure if Old Muni Courts building is still committed to a particular developer or something the city could look at w Blues owners.
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With Regional Sports Authority getting a piece of the Rams settlement you can embrace the idea of how to take Enterprise Arena facilities to next level and what would be the footprint /down payment on securing real estate for a future county football stadium, place for future XFL not tied to dome/Rams or if a future phase II CVC expansion incorporates a dome demo.
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Whether a play for NBA team or not, I think you could have a pretty good outcome for Enterprise arena and future events if they would find a way to incorporate an expansion of back office/locker room facilities on west side and replacing the garage with a new Old Muni Courts redevelopment including underground/parking garage/tower on the East side. Just not sure if Old Muni Courts building is still committed to a particular developer or something the city could look at w Blues owners.
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With Regional Sports Authority getting a piece of the Rams settlement you can embrace the idea of how to take Enterprise Arena facilities to next level and what would be the footprint /down payment on securing real estate for a future county football stadium, place for future XFL not tied to dome/Rams or if a future phase II CVC expansion incorporates a dome demo.
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I think STL being STL (we don’t think big) we all better get used to baseball, hockey and soccer for a loooooonnnnggggg time.
Why does STL need more teams and why is having 3 bad? I’d rather have the 3 teams be great every year and have nice facilities.
I think given the recent updates, the Enterprise Center should be more than good for another 15-20 years. Are the concourses too narrow? Yes. Are the exposed wires and pipes trashy/minor league? Yes. But we're good.dredger wrote: ↑Dec 03, 2021^ San Jose with a population of a million itself, Google going all in on their downtown campus and plenty of land value still to be had downtown could probably help owners pull off a new Sharks stadium and give enough square feet to make a play for NBA team even though it would be doubtful with Warriors just up the road. But who knows, maybe San Jose makes play for Sac Kings, a team that somehow seems to hang on in the valley (I do have a co worker who is a die hard fan). Heck, wouldn't be surprised if Kings owners are thinking Vegas as well. Having the Kings and Knights play at same arena wouldn't be a surprising outcome IMO
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Whether a play for NBA team or not, I think you could have a pretty good outcome for Enterprise arena and future events if they would find a way to incorporate an expansion of back office/locker room facilities on west side and replacing the garage with a new Old Muni Courts redevelopment including underground/parking garage/tower on the East side. Just not sure if Old Muni Courts building is still committed to a particular developer or something the city could look at w Blues owners.
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With Regional Sports Authority getting a piece of the Rams settlement you can embrace the idea of how to take Enterprise Arena facilities to next level and what would be the footprint /down payment on securing real estate for a future county football stadium, place for future XFL not tied to dome/Rams or if a future phase II CVC expansion incorporates a dome demo.
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The Kings are going nowhere. Sacramento built the Kings a brand new $558M arena that opened in 2016 to keep them from relocating to Seattle. Golden 1 Center is pretty awesome too. I interviewed with the Kings back in 2015 and flew out there for the final in person round - got to see the arena as it was under construction. Sacramento also built their entertainment district next door called Downtown Commons (DoCo).dredger wrote: ↑Dec 03, 2021^ San Jose with a population of a million itself, Google going all in on their downtown campus and plenty of land value still to be had downtown could probably help owners pull off a new Sharks stadium and give enough square feet to make a play for NBA team even though it would be doubtful with Warriors just up the road. But who knows, maybe San Jose makes play for Sac Kings, a team that somehow seems to hang on in the valley (I do have a co worker who is a die hard fan). Heck, wouldn't be surprised if Kings owners are thinking Vegas as well. Having the Kings and Knights play at same arena wouldn't be a surprising outcome IMO
If any new cities are going to get an NBA team, it'll be through expansion and not relocation.
Nothing wrong with having 3 pro sports teams and nobody saying St Louis needs more then 3.ldai_phs wrote: ↑Dec 04, 2021Why does STL need more teams and why is having 3 bad? I’d rather have the 3 teams be great every year and have nice facilities.
I do believe that NBA team would fit well for St Louis, compliment Blues and add even more event days at Enterprise Arena. Plus, realistically your not going to see NFL return any time soon but St Louis would have an outside shot at a NBA expansion team in a market that could probably support 4 pro sports teams outside of NFL. However, you would need to rethink square footage not on the floor or arena itself but back office, lockers, conditioning/weight so on. Space that would be used and maybe help keep you competitive for NCAA & Olympic trial events even if you don't land an NBA team in foreseeable future.
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The other rational, I can see the state make the argument that they were their to help St Louis/region build the dome and bring back the NFL so time for Regional Sports Authority share of settlement to go back to the state. So why not have something to pitch if the current pro teams can get behind it. Make a deal with county with half going to future Enterprise Arena facility expansion and the other half to county to bail out the new rink where Blues practice (pay off the bonds)/expanded youth sport facilities. My gut feeling is the sooner the County & City can come up with a game plan together on at least part of the settlement that involves the state the better the chance all the funds go back into the region.
Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Dec 04, 2021If any new cities are going to get an NBA team, it'll be through expansion and not relocation.
If any cities get an NBA team it’s Seattle and Las Vegas.
I don't see why anybody would put 3-4 professional sports franchises in Las Vegas. It's a relatively poor metro area with no major industries outside of tourism. It has low educational attainment, an ecological disaster, and rapidly rising crime. It's very similar to Orlando (a more seedy western version). I seriously thought after they got the Raiders they would be done, but now I'm hearing they may get the A's and possibly an NBA franchise? St. Louis must really be doing something wrong.dweebe wrote: ↑Dec 04, 2021Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Dec 04, 2021If any new cities are going to get an NBA team, it'll be through expansion and not relocation.
If any cities get an NBA team it’s Seattle and Las Vegas.
I think sports betting plays a bigger roll with regards to Vegas than it might with some other cities.
Still, Las Vegas metro also grew at 16% in the last census. The problems you mention aside…Americans are still moving there in droves and there’s lots of new money. If some of the old money folks here wanted to partner up with Chafitez or something like that I’d image the NBA would listen. There just doesn’t seem to be much of an appetite for that here. And I honestly don’t think there needs to be. Lots more important things to focus on than basketball.
Still, Las Vegas metro also grew at 16% in the last census. The problems you mention aside…Americans are still moving there in droves and there’s lots of new money. If some of the old money folks here wanted to partner up with Chafitez or something like that I’d image the NBA would listen. There just doesn’t seem to be much of an appetite for that here. And I honestly don’t think there needs to be. Lots more important things to focus on than basketball.
I agree on what your saying. I think it's just fascinating that so many people move to places like Vegas and Orlando that have low paying jobs, horrible traffic, and sorry educational systems. I guess it just shows the draw of new development and sunlight. I could definitely see a much lower quality of life in many of these sunbelt metro as they age. Many of them are poorly planned, overpriced, and cheaply built. Living in Tampa I already see the rise of crime and dramatic change in the cost of living. I'm wondering if these places have an expiration date on uninhibited growth and how many of them will deal with their growing pains.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Dec 04, 2021I think sports betting plays a bigger roll with regards to Vegas than it might with some other cities.
Still, Las Vegas metro also grew at 16% in the last census. The problems you mention aside…Americans are still moving there in droves and there’s lots of new money. If some of the old money folks here wanted to partner up with Chafitez or something like that I’d image the NBA would listen. There just doesn’t seem to be much of an appetite for that here. And I honestly don’t think there needs to be. Lots more important things to focus on than basketball.
I know what you’re saying. Two points to countergoat314 wrote: ↑Dec 04, 2021I don't see why anybody would put 3-4 professional sports franchises in Las Vegas. It's a relatively poor metro area with no major industries outside of tourism. It has low educational attainment, an ecological disaster, and rapidly rising crime. It's very similar to Orlando (a more seedy western version). I seriously thought after they got the Raiders they would be done, but now I'm hearing they may get the A's and possibly an NBA franchise? St. Louis must really be doing something wrong.
1) Gambling, gambling, gambling.
2) Tourist draw. The Raiders and Golden Knights have settled in to accepting the large number of opposing fans attending game. Their money spends the same.
Friends went to a Blues game in Vegas and remarked at the good time. Tons of Blues fans walking/drinking around the south end of the strip before and after the game.
Then again I was in Las Vegas the week after the 2007? All Star Game was held there. They were still treating it as a near disaster event on par with a hurricane or earthquake. The racism was disheartening.
This is a big one too. Even my parents have been to a Blues game in Vegas.dweebe wrote: ↑Dec 04, 20212) Tourist draw. The Raiders and Golden Knights have settled in to accepting the large number of opposing fans attending game. Their money spends the same.
Friends went to a Blues game in Vegas and remarked at the good time. Tons of Blues fans walking/drinking around the south end of the strip before and after the game.
My friends said it’s the best NHL arena to visit outside of Nashville for walking friendly and pre/post game nearby.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Dec 04, 2021This is a big one too. Even my parents have been to a Blues game in Vegas.dweebe wrote: ↑Dec 04, 20212) Tourist draw. The Raiders and Golden Knights have settled in to accepting the large number of opposing fans attending game. Their money spends the same.
Friends went to a Blues game in Vegas and remarked at the good time. Tons of Blues fans walking/drinking around the south end of the strip before and after the game.
I think the race is on between MLB and NBA to Vegas.
But Seattle needs the Sonics back ASAP. The way the team left town is still a great wrong on par with St. Louis/Rams, Baltimore/Colts and Minnesota/Northstars.
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I wonder what the future of Vegas will be.
The place is pretty dependent on water that is drying up.
The place is pretty dependent on water that is drying up.