urbanSTL

Laife Fulk wrote:There's a salary cap, so money imbalance isn't really the issue.  Star players just like to play in the larger markets if they can join up with their friends in LA or NYC.  

How I understand it:


The big $$$ comes from brand endorsements during and after your career. Joining with superstars guarantees you win more games and create a larger following to use to land those endorsements.

* Source: friends in sports management*

^Ah. That is strange indeed.

ldai_phs wrote: ↑

Jan 20, 2021

Laife Fulk wrote:There's a salary cap, so money imbalance isn't really the issue.  Star players just like to play in the larger markets if they can join up with their friends in LA or NYC.  

How I understand it:


The big $$$ comes from brand endorsements during and after your career. Joining with superstars guarantees you win more games and create a larger following to use to land those endorsements.

* Source: friends in sports management*

Correct.  So this isn't anything the League has control over.  For instance, LeBron James makes about $50M per year in endorsements.  His actual salary with the Lakers is only $39M.

I think the NBA has poor competition because the best players play proportionally more minutes and influence games more than they do in other sports like football, baseball, and hockey. 

You can run some of your games in the NBA through a single player.

NBA teams can win a championship with a short bench - just a seven or eight man rotation. Meanwhile, the last player on a 25-man MLB roster may be the difference between that team winning a playoff series or going home. 

It's just the nature of the game. 

Going back to the 1979-1980 season, only 12 NBA franchises have won a championship. 

You only have to go back to 2003 to find the same in MLB, which, by the way, has had seven different champions in the last seven years. 

Have to agree with the thoughts, a lot of moving parts but at end of day the NBA's top tier talent tends to get stacked on a few teams including the factor that the NBA players themselves get a big say on where they end up playing relative to other pro sport leagues.    

Probably good example as of late is Harden going over to Brooklyn to play with Durant to stack the team with meaningful results.   At same time in NFL at the moment is in the midst of their end of year shakeups, coach firings and my favorite on sports talk this morning,Texans willing to trade their QB for a number of top draft picks and players.   Who will win if Texans trade happens would still be a question mark for NFL parties involved at end of day   Where as  Brooklyn will get some NBA wins with their new lineup just on the fact that their only so much top tier talent to go around and limited number of player needed relative to other pro sports as noted by the postings above 

KansasCitian wrote: ↑

Jan 20, 2021

Going back to the 1979-1980 season, only 12 NBA franchises have won a championship. 

You only have to go back to 2003 to find the same in MLB, which, by the way, has had seven different champions in the last seven years. 

To emphasize this:

• 15 franchises combined, half of the NBA, have not posted a single championship in nearly 50 years ('73 NY Knicks being the most recent)

• 18 franchises have not even played in the NBA Finals in the last 20 seasons

• Only 7 small market franchises have played in the NBA Finals in the last 43 years, and the only ones to win were the Cleveland Cavaliers ('16) and the San Antonio Spurs ('99, '03, '05, '07, '14)

^No expansion team in the MLB has a winning record over the team's history, per baseball-reference. I generally take that to be a sign that something is broken in baseball. (Though given that we don't have an expansion team I don't have a big stake in the imbalance.) But yeah, that's pretty dire. Even so, I'd probably not mind having a team.

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑

Jan 21, 2021

^No expansion team in the MLB has a winning record over the team's history, per baseball-reference. I generally take that to be a sign that something is broken in baseball. (Though given that we don't have an expansion team I don't have a big stake in the imbalance.) But yeah, that's pretty dire. Even so, I'd probably not mind having a team.

There's a lot more nuance to these teams records than just total winning percentage. Marlins won two WS, Diamondbacks have won one. And those are just two of the most recent four expansion teams. Ownership has a lot more to do with some of these trends than anything else (see Loria, Jeffrey). Even the Phillies, which are one of the oldest teams in the League and are in one of the biggest markets (not to mention have been spending money like one too) are below .500 for their entire franchise history.

The Phillies are the worst original 16 team. 

^^Not saying there isn't more nuance, or that teams haven't done well at times. But I do think it's the symptom of a problem. I don't think in a healthy league that sort of thing should be true. And from what you're saying the problems in NBA are even worse for a complicated mix of reasons. Which makes me sad, but shouldn't surprise me.

KansasCitian wrote: ↑

Jan 08, 2021

I believe the NBA has gone to smaller markets to avoid direct competition with NFL and MLB for a long time. 

Memphis, Portland, Orlando, San Antonio, Salt Lake City, Sacramento, and Oklahoma City are all examples of this. Indianapolis has NFL but nothing else. 

This part. ^

Saint Louis is caught in between. Without rehashing the argument about whether MLS is "major," we've got three teams again. The NBA likes being the big fish or one of two big fish in these medium-sized places. High 20s media market with three teams doesn't scream "here, obviously" to the NBA.

Also, all these cases folks are making about how Enterprise *could* be refurbished to accommodate the NBA are great, but why is the NBA going to come here to a refurbished nearly 27yo arena when there are newer extant ones and someone else would build them a new one? The competition is pretty stiff.

It seems like you'd have a better play to make for NBA expansion in another 20y when the Blues need to replace Enterprise entirely, and you can pitch dual occupancy in your 2040 winter sports arena, instead of a 27yo hockey arena that broadcasts "this place is absolutely adequate."

^ I guess my two counter arguments 

One, expansion teams come around only so many times and you either make a pitch at one when the opportunity presents itself because who knows what the future gives you.  

Second, yep Enterprise is absolutely adequate for courtside and a modest expansion can get you the additional locker, fitness and additional non court facilities you need.  On top of it, only a few markets will be able to get and support similar to the recently built GS Warriors stadium.  Enterprise Stadium with a modest investment on par with most NBA teams and facilities.   

So why not go after a team and if you need a new stadium down the road let it play out that way?   Otherwise, just wishful thinking that another round of expansion will happen when you think region is ready 

But this all moot unless a ownership group comes together with a couple deep pockets.

I don't think your second point is accurate.  The more realistic NBA expansion cities have brand new arenas - Las Vegas with T-Mobile and Seattle with Key Arena (if they didn't look to build a new NBA specific arena of course).  Sprint Center in KC is absolutely better than Enterprise too.  Those facilities have all the bells and whistles an NBA team would demand.

I do agree with your final statement though.  This is all a moot point without a billionaire backing ownership group.  And even then St. Louis would still be behind the Las Vegas and Seattles of the world.

I'd think that for anyone willing to drop $2+ billion on an NBA team, a couple hundred million or whatever to upgrade Enterprise Center to NBA standards would barely register.

And as several articles have mentioned, this is all about the Benjamins for the NBA. They would put an NBA team in Omaha if Warren and Howard Buffett wanted to buy in. Let the billionaire(s) figure out where they'll play...(see above).

pattimagee wrote: ↑

Nov 29, 2021

Now that we're on the other side of this, you gotta hope the XFL finds a way back to market... because the best way to either A. Put a bigger dent in the NFL is to have an incredibly successful XFL team here, or B. lure the NFL back to St. Louis by getting some absolutely silly attendance numbers for XFL games.

I'm 100% on board with the XFL if it can come back.  But I'd put my sports fan weight into vying for an NBA franchise.  

• NBA commissioner Silver said for the first time in October that he'd look at expansion, albeit with the qualifier that it's 'not their top priority'.
• If I recall correctly (and this is pulling from the fuzzy back pages of my memory banks), St. Louis is the largest market with only two of the 'big four' leagues
• You've got a still-fairly-fresh sports vacuum to fill in the absence of the NFL. MLS will take some of that, but there's still plenty of fans and/or money to go around.
• Enterprise Center, while not as sexy an option as would be building a new state-of-the-art facility, is a nearly turn-key place to play. And that's a popular setup; 11 current NBA franchises share facilities with NHL teams.
• The Silna contract is no longer an impediment - this shouldn't be downplayed as a reason the NBA bypassed STL in previous relocations & expansions.

There would be a lot of competition for an expansion franchise, with several other viable cities. But should a potential owner with STL ties throw his hat into the ring, St. Louis has a very strong case to make.

-RBB

There is a way to fix the space issue- demo the garage and add on and replace the garage on the space on the other side of 14th on the city hall upper lot.

We’re talking about a scenario of being awarded an nba gram- which would come with plenty of lead time, 2 years at minimum. city would have plenty of time to build a new garage at the upper lot of city hall and even bigger in side before demo of the current.

Yeah, it's more likely that St. Louis loses the Blues than gains an NBA team in the next thirty years. 

KansasCitian wrote: ↑

Nov 30, 2021

Yeah, it's more likely that St. Louis loses the Blues than gains an NBA team in the next thirty years. 

no, the Blues are incredibly popular here and ownership is local 

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Nov 30, 2021

KansasCitian wrote: ↑

Nov 30, 2021

Yeah, it's more likely that St. Louis loses the Blues than gains an NBA team in the next thirty years. 

no, the Blues are incredibly popular here and ownership is local 

I'm not saying it's likely the Blues relocate; I'm saying it's more likely than St. Louis landing an NBA team -- and I will continue to stand by that statement.