Shoppers of what? Retail space that isn't financially viable to build and doesn't exist if the "residents being subsidized" don't rent the associated apartments?quincunx wrote: ↑Oct 06, 2021I pass by trash from cars all the time sometimes even pieces of cars.
Here we're seeing a plan to underprice parking by $6.5M for residents with tax dollars from shoppers. That could go for other things, though within the confines of a CID it has to go to remediating blight and public improvements within the district.
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The notion that "Capital will be allocated efficiently" is complete nonsense.newstl2020 wrote: ↑Oct 06, 2021Does anyone here experience the "transit" experience along this corridor outside of a car? Would anyone with a car opt into that experience after nightfall at any point? If so, would you be 100% comfortable with your significant other or (reasonable age) child doing the same?
If the answer to everything above isn't a truthful "yes," we need to examine everything else involved much more seriously than we do a parking garage in a new apartment building.
If public transit is a safer, cheaper, more convenient alternative to cars, buildings would require far less parking. It isn't any of these things at current. Allocate energy effectively. Stop trying to treat the symptoms and treat the illness.
Capital will be allocated efficiently. If you want parking to not be required, create the scenario where it isn't. Don't sit around and b**** to developers and investors that the public infrastructure supports something it doesn't. What exactly do you expect them to do? Create their own public transit?
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You're in the wrong societal structure. Places exist elsewhere on the globe you would be happier with.PeterXCV wrote: ↑Oct 06, 2021The notion that "Capital will be allocated efficiently" is complete nonsense.newstl2020 wrote: ↑Oct 06, 2021Does anyone here experience the "transit" experience along this corridor outside of a car? Would anyone with a car opt into that experience after nightfall at any point? If so, would you be 100% comfortable with your significant other or (reasonable age) child doing the same?
If the answer to everything above isn't a truthful "yes," we need to examine everything else involved much more seriously than we do a parking garage in a new apartment building.
If public transit is a safer, cheaper, more convenient alternative to cars, buildings would require far less parking. It isn't any of these things at current. Allocate energy effectively. Stop trying to treat the symptoms and treat the illness.
Capital will be allocated efficiently. If you want parking to not be required, create the scenario where it isn't. Don't sit around and b**** to developers and investors that the public infrastructure supports something it doesn't. What exactly do you expect them to do? Create their own public transit?
Edit: I also believe you are conflating "effectively" with "morally" which are two distinct arguments. You may have an argument in one, you do not in the other.
"PeterXCV" is out here believing developers want to spend money on parking when they could get higher rents without it if we had more effective and safer public transit. 
Will no one rent the associated apartments if they have to pay for electricity? Should shoppers pay for that too?newstl2020 wrote: ↑Oct 06, 2021Shoppers of what? Retail space that isn't financially viable to build and doesn't exist if the "residents being subsidized" don't rent the associated apartments?quincunx wrote: ↑Oct 06, 2021I pass by trash from cars all the time sometimes even pieces of cars.
Here we're seeing a plan to underprice parking by $6.5M for residents with tax dollars from shoppers. That could go for other things, though within the confines of a CID it has to go to remediating blight and public improvements within the district.
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Shoppers should have to pay for electricity if it is the only thing that makes the project financially viable, yes.quincunx wrote: ↑Oct 06, 2021Will no one rent the associated apartments if they have to pay for electricity? Should shoppers pay for that too?newstl2020 wrote: ↑Oct 06, 2021Shoppers of what? Retail space that isn't financially viable to build and doesn't exist if the "residents being subsidized" don't rent the associated apartments?quincunx wrote: ↑Oct 06, 2021I pass by trash from cars all the time sometimes even pieces of cars.
Here we're seeing a plan to underprice parking by $6.5M for residents with tax dollars from shoppers. That could go for other things, though within the confines of a CID it has to go to remediating blight and public improvements within the district.
If no one will shop there, the project isn't viable. If no one will live there, the shopping isn't viable. If there isn't parking, people living there isn't possible.
What's your point? No people in the city is good?
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It kind of annoys me that "Prospect Yards", a SLU contrived name for their development area, is "taking credit" for this. Im not sure they get any tax credits SLU controls, but I think this group is destroying SLU in terms of actually accomplishing things.pattimagee wrote: ↑Oct 06, 2021
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Is this a for-sure deal, or is it just a name to throw on the rendering?
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99.9% sure it’s a done deal. I had to keep my mouth shut about this for a while now. Now that’s it’s public, I can say that beyond just Pier Property Group developing the area one building at a time, they now have a significant “one up” over whatever happens at Iron Hill. Target and TopGolf, or similar, plus a microbrewery/distillery and whatever stuff goes in at the Mill Creek Flats are all great components to bring people down. Having people live here is just a great thing in general too.Miss Shell wrote:Is this a for-sure deal, or is it just a name to throw on the rendering?
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That's amazing news! Thanks for the info, Chris.
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Yes that's great news. Would be nice if they'd consider building a pedestrian bridge over the tracks at Theresa to give people living at the Steelcote square buildings or going to Target another way to get to Metrolink than the Grand bridge.
I would've been happy if they just built a public connection from Gratiot to Grand, but no.PeterXCV wrote: ↑Oct 09, 2021Yes that's great news. Would be nice if they'd consider building a pedestrian bridge over the tracks at Theresa to give people living at the Steelcote square buildings or going to Target another way to get to Metrolink than the Grand bridge.
I thought they were going to use some of that CID $$$ for a public connection, but I guess we can still hope that the developer for the former Iron Hill site will provide one on the west side of the viaduct...
It would be super unprofessional to put the name of an actual retailer on a rendering without their permission. At the very least, the architect and developer would get a stern cease-and-desist letter.Miss Shell wrote: ↑Oct 09, 2021Is this a for-sure deal, or is it just a name to throw on the rendering?
That's why retail bays in renderings now always say something like "East Oak", "Box & Basket", or "Darby Palmer", or just "Signage". So, Target has at least signed an LOI for this space.
It is an overall good use of space on a very difficult site, and they have done a decent job of addressing the side of the building facing Grand, but a few additional items of interest/concerns from the drawings linked above:
- The residential lobby entrance, small amenity area, and service access is on Gratiot St., on the northwest corner of the building, with a few windows looking out at the Corrigan Brothers outdoor storage mess
- The entrance to the Target loading docks is also on Gratiot, 21' below the retail floor so they are completely reliant on two service elevators for all deliveries, and all the semis idling on the street and backing up/beeping, is going to make Gratiot even less pedestrian-friendly than it already is
- Unfortunately, there is no other retail space in the building, although I suppose it is possible they could convert some of the garage space along Gratiot, next to the residential entrance, later at some point
- There is a small, elevated rooftop deck projecting out to the north over the residential units below, next to Grand, that looks very cheesy, like the wooden party decks people always try to build on the backs of historic lofts and houses
That's the way it is now. After it passes the SLU sign going south it narrows to between 6 to 8' wide, on both sides of Grand. They'd have plenty of room to widen it along their new parking lot, but it'll still be narrow along the Captain D's lot.quincunx wrote: ↑Oct 09, 2021The sidewalk along Grand south of Papin looks narrow.
I don't know why they didn't extend the wider sidewalk all the way to Chouteau as part of the new viaduct project, other than $ of course, but they neglected a whole lot of common sense in that project.
Speaking of which, I actually saw someone using that bike lane along the Grand Avenue viaduct the other day. I told him, "You're a brave man." That's not what I was thinking though...
I’ve been impressed with how this has all played out. I’ll admit when they announced they were rehabbing the first building I thought, who is going to want to live in the middle of an industrial zone. But they obviously had bigger plans.
Is there a layout of everything that has been announced so far (plus other land the developer controls)? I’ve looked at Google images to try to piece it together but can’t figure it all out.
This is phase 4 but I was thinking there have only been 2 others so I’m missing something.
Is there a layout of everything that has been announced so far (plus other land the developer controls)? I’ve looked at Google images to try to piece it together but can’t figure it all out.
This is phase 4 but I was thinking there have only been 2 others so I’m missing something.
I don't have the tools on me to make a map showing the projects right now, but here's how things are...jshank83 wrote: ↑Oct 10, 2021I’ve been impressed with how this has all played out. I’ll admit when they announced they were rehabbing the first building I thought, who is going to want to live in the middle of an industrial zone. But they obviously had bigger plans.
Is there a layout of everything that has been announced so far (plus other land the developer controls)? I’ve looked at Google images to try to piece it together but can’t figure it all out.
This is phase 4 but I was thinking there have only been 2 others so I’m missing something.
Phase 1: Steelcote Lofts (33 loft apartments)
Phase 2: Steelcote Crossing (former Columbia Oil Building, now 15 micro-apartments and a small brewery/distillery space)
Phase 3: Mill Creek Flats (new construction, 110 unit apartment building with 10,000sf of ground floor retail/restaurant space)
Phase 4: Target Building/900 South Grand (just announced, 196 apartments and Target store)
Supplemental Phase: TopGolf (or similar) at the northwest corner of Compton and Chouteau.
PPG also has the option to develop the future surface parking lot on Grand (for Target right now) and then a site further down Papin and one on Chouteau (which can be merged with the Papin one to form one large site if the alley is vacated there). So another 2 or 3 buildings could be built over the years down there.
1 is donechriss752 wrote: ↑Oct 10, 2021I don't have the tools on me to make a map showing the projects right now, but here's how things are...jshank83 wrote: ↑Oct 10, 2021I’ve been impressed with how this has all played out. I’ll admit when they announced they were rehabbing the first building I thought, who is going to want to live in the middle of an industrial zone. But they obviously had bigger plans.
Is there a layout of everything that has been announced so far (plus other land the developer controls)? I’ve looked at Google images to try to piece it together but can’t figure it all out.
This is phase 4 but I was thinking there have only been 2 others so I’m missing something.
Phase 1: Steelcote Lofts (33 loft apartments)
Phase 2: Steelcote Crossing (former Columbia Oil Building, now 15 micro-apartments and a small brewery/distillery space)
Phase 3: Mill Creek Flats (new construction, 110 unit apartment building with 10,000sf of ground floor retail/restaurant space)
Phase 4: Target Building/900 South Grand (just announced, 196 apartments and Target store)
Supplemental Phase: TopGolf (or similar) at the northwest corner of Compton and Chouteau.
PPG also has the option to develop the future surface parking lot on Grand (for Target right now) and then a site further down Papin and one on Chouteau (which can be merged with the Papin one to form one large site if the alley is vacated there). So another 2 or 3 buildings could be built over the years down there.
What is the status of 2 and 3?
2 done?
3 in work?
Phase 2 is complete and residents are living in the building. Brewery space has yet to be occupied.jshank83 wrote: ↑Oct 10, 20211 is donechriss752 wrote: ↑Oct 10, 2021I don't have the tools on me to make a map showing the projects right now, but here's how things are...jshank83 wrote: ↑Oct 10, 2021I’ve been impressed with how this has all played out. I’ll admit when they announced they were rehabbing the first building I thought, who is going to want to live in the middle of an industrial zone. But they obviously had bigger plans.
Is there a layout of everything that has been announced so far (plus other land the developer controls)? I’ve looked at Google images to try to piece it together but can’t figure it all out.
This is phase 4 but I was thinking there have only been 2 others so I’m missing something.
Phase 1: Steelcote Lofts (33 loft apartments)
Phase 2: Steelcote Crossing (former Columbia Oil Building, now 15 micro-apartments and a small brewery/distillery space)
Phase 3: Mill Creek Flats (new construction, 110 unit apartment building with 10,000sf of ground floor retail/restaurant space)
Phase 4: Target Building/900 South Grand (just announced, 196 apartments and Target store)
Supplemental Phase: TopGolf (or similar) at the northwest corner of Compton and Chouteau.
PPG also has the option to develop the future surface parking lot on Grand (for Target right now) and then a site further down Papin and one on Chouteau (which can be merged with the Papin one to form one large site if the alley is vacated there). So another 2 or 3 buildings could be built over the years down there.
What is the status of 2 and 3?
2 done?
3 in work?
Phase 3 (Mill Creek Flats) is under construction a picture posted by Urbanitas a few posts ago shows the status.
I made a quick map of the developments in the area so far.
Thanks for that illustration, Chris. Now that the Flats building is up, you can really see just how much this whole area is changing. Really is amazing what the developers have accomplished with such an unassuming site.
I think once this Target building is built, and the new sidewalks, streetlights, landscaping, and road repaving is complete, this area's industrial feel will wear off. There will still be a lot of industrial usages, but compared to what the area was, it's entirely different.framer wrote: ↑Oct 10, 2021Thanks for that illustration, Chris. Now that the Flats building is up, you can really see just how much this whole area is changing. Really is amazing what the developers have accomplished with such an unassuming site.