urbanSTL

chriss752 wrote: ↑

Oct 10, 2021

framer wrote: ↑

Oct 10, 2021

Thanks for that illustration, Chris. Now that the Flats building is up, you can really see just how much this whole area is changing. Really is amazing what the developers have accomplished with such an unassuming site. 

I think once this Target building is built, and the new sidewalks, streetlights, landscaping, and road repaving is complete, this area's industrial feel will wear off. There will still be a lot of industrial usages, but compared to what the area was, it's entirely different. 

Any idea what the schedule is for doing all that work, and who is going to pay for it, beyond what is in and around the perimeter of the PPG and Topgolf (if any) sites?  Will the CID pay for streetscape work throughout the area, or just in the Target building site?  From the numbers posted by quincunx, I'd guess the latter.  So, who pays for the rest?

Because that's tens of millions of dollars and probably a decade's worth of work you are talking about.  And that's not even including the streets west of the viaduct.  The street infrastructure along Papin is practically non-existent, for example.  Everything needs to be rebuilt.

Just as an aside, after having walked down it recently, Papin seems to be a gathering spot for people who live out of their cars...

urbanitas wrote: ↑

Oct 10, 2021

chriss752 wrote: ↑

Oct 10, 2021

framer wrote: ↑

Oct 10, 2021

Thanks for that illustration, Chris. Now that the Flats building is up, you can really see just how much this whole area is changing. Really is amazing what the developers have accomplished with such an unassuming site. 

I think once this Target building is built, and the new sidewalks, streetlights, landscaping, and road repaving is complete, this area's industrial feel will wear off. There will still be a lot of industrial usages, but compared to what the area was, it's entirely different. 

Any idea what the schedule is for doing all that work, and who is going to pay for it, beyond what is in and around the perimeter of the PPG and Topgolf (if any) sites?  Will the CID pay for streetscape work throughout the area, or just in the Target building site?  From the numbers posted by quincunx, I'd guess the latter.  So, who pays for the rest?

Because that's tens of millions of dollars and probably a decade's worth of work you are talking about.  And that's not even including the streets west of the viaduct.  The street infrastructure along Papin is practically non-existent, for example.  Everything needs to be rebuilt.

Just as an aside, after having walked down it recently, Papin seems to be a gathering spot for people who live out of their cars...

The infrastructure work will happen with each additional phase. When you look at the CID boundaries (I guess that's what it is), you can see where the CID money will go. Mill Creek Flats will have it's own sidewalks and improvements up to the surface lot that will sit just north of the extended Gratiot Street. With the exception of a thin parcel being owned by LuxLiving, Hamburg/PPG owns most of the remainder of the Southside of Papin and a portion along Chouteau. So once that phase or phases is/are announced and built, the improvements will continue down that side. Although I suspect the creation of a new sidewalk on Papin will happen sooner rather than later.

As for people living out of their cars, that will come to an end soon. That car junkyard will be pushed out and cleared for the betterment of the area (and to make future development a little easier).

Fox2 has picked up the story, and is giving Chris the proper credit for breaking the story. Nice job, Chris!

https://fox2now.com/news/is-target-comi ... fer-clues/

ST. LOUIS-Rumors of ‘big box’ retail interest in coming to the city of St. Louis have ebbed and flowed in recent years, but it appears one of them is moving forward with plans to put a store in Midtown.

Plans filed with the St. Louis Development Corporation have identified Target as a potential tenant in a mixed-use project designed at Grand and Papin.

A spokesman for the Pier Property Group, the developer for the project, declined comment. A message seeking comment from Target has not been returned.

The project was first reported by City Scene STL.

and what of the fish place and rallys? they stay?

Urbanitas broke the news.

pdm_ad wrote: ↑

Oct 14, 2021

Fox2 has picked up the story, and is giving Chris the proper credit for breaking the story. Nice job, Chris!

I hate when the media picks up on what I write. It's a rare event but I still hate it. Urbanitas shared the images of Target first and many of us on this forum were guessing correctly about it before. I knew about Target back when the project was revealed and had a story draft written up but didn't say anything at the time because the deal wasn't 100% yet. There are other story drafts of mine for much more significant projects but they wont be posted until developers say "sure, go ahead" or provide images. Like the project scopes, architects, contractors, cost, relevant drone photos, and so on are all in the story drafts just there's nothing to publish yet.

But back on the Fox 2 thing, like TopGolf and KMOX, there are easy tools out there for those media members to figure out what's going on. I encourage them to take a look when they get the chance.

Besides new renderings, which were also sent to me, there's nothing really new in that story.

Yet again, people pay to read for weeks old news while UrbanSTL, NextSTL, and my CityScene are almost always on it (and for free!)

Parking lot bums me out a bit, wish they could tuck that away somewhere off grand but i'm here for this other than that!

Looks like there'll be a short stairway going from the Grand sidewalk down to the storefront just north of Papin/parking lot entrance, but nothing going directly from Grand down to Gratiot. 

Great to see this one continue to move forward. A great driver for continued growth in The Gate. 

It would be nice to have a few other additional popular retailers located right next to this. I’m just wondering about the long term popularity of a small target store on an island by itself where shoppers have no other reason to go there.

The plan is that it won't be an island for long.

sc4mayor wrote:Yeah I thought someone had said the eventual plan would allow for the surface parking lot across the “new” Papin Street to become a future phase.

That’s the plan. PPG owns that site now, or will, plus most of the remaining land down to Theresa and then over to Chouteau. So you could build a few more buildings there.

How many times do we need to be fooled by promises of future phases? Just increase the amount of structured parking.

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

Oct 28, 2021

How many times do we need to be fooled by promises of future phases? Just increase the amount of structured parking.

I think PPG has remained fairly consistent with the development here. It's been steady. He's the one developer 'm not concerned with when it comes to future phases.

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

Oct 28, 2021

How many times do we need to be fooled by promises of future phases? Just increase the amount of structured parking.

Everything in Pier's histroy suggests they know how to "GSD".  

Downtown or CWE? I'm with you. An industrial corner in midtown surrounded by train tracks and actively ripped apart by the one institutional player in the area (SLU)? I'm fine with them doing whatever they want.  Especially because they're the only company actually doing anything. south of 64 in the area.

I think a company like Target would probably never agree to an island location like this without a very strong promise of further development, including more retail very close to it. Seems like they must know something about future plans that hasn’t been made public yet. I’ve been to Targets all over the country and have never seen one in a location like this. Keeping my fingers crossed that Choteau is about to get a lot of good stuff, far more than just a Top Golf.

I mean Ikea isn't far away. 

SouthCityJR wrote: ↑

Oct 28, 2021

I’m just wondering about the long term popularity of a small target store on an island by itself where shoppers have no other reason to go there.

It may be on an island, but its waters are closely patrolled by an experienced captain. 

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

Oct 28, 2021

How many times do we need to be fooled by promises of future phases? Just increase the amount of structured parking.

I feel like Pier has a pretty solid record of just building stuff while SLU sits on their hands.  I love everything about what they've been doing, even with squabbles over petty design details, parking, etc.  I feel like they're bringing a lot of energy to the table that's been missing for a very long time.

PeterXCV wrote: ↑

Oct 28, 2021

I mean Ikea isn't far away. 

When you noted Ikea my first thought is wondered if Target was talking to the Foundry folks any.    It would be visible from Freeway, next door to Ikea, split SLU campus & SSM/medical school and CORTEX just to the west.   So would have love to be a bar fly and understand their choice at end of day.   

Agree with a lot of  comments, developer seems to have a lot of things going for itself as they have rehabbed two buildings, currently have infill going up and now  a fourth building w a City Target in works.   Probably a Top Golf in near future along with a few other ideas in the works.   Reconnecting Papin St is good and hopefully they embrace better Grand Ave pedestrian connetions when it is all said and done.  

The best part is in recent history a big box strip development as rendered didn't happen in place of the Foundry, so far they same hasn't happened for Iron Hill site and now Target has chosen probably much better fit for what will happen.  Yes, it will take a few more buildings around it but the developer has seem to take a path to more density in the immediate area.