I don't think that's a public stairway ( see above).GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Aug 20, 2021I don't mind the blank wall on Grand so much considering it's to allow a stairway going connecting Grand to Gratiot. Pretty important connection IMO.
Also that curbside space is really making me think Target. It would be a perfect location for one.
No. I'm saying that the new Steelcote retail tenant will be Target.dredger wrote: ↑Aug 20, 2021Urbanitas are you hinting/teasing/speculate at what the new Iron Hill development might include? That is how i take your post not so much on what it going to happen on the east side of Grand/Steelcote developments but what might happen on the West side of Grand.
I don't have any specific inside information, beyond the fact that Target has been looking for space in the Central Corridor for at least 5 years now. And the size and location fits their search requirements. Plus, there really aren't many other possibilities. What else could it be?
The only thing that gives me paws
, is the relative lack of parking, but...I will just note that there is a whole lot of available property to the east...The parking garage is for residents, not retail customers. There's no way they would mix the two with such a small garage.addxb2 wrote: ↑Aug 20, 2021I would love it and it could be… but I don’t know if Gratiot and Theresa could handle the traffic a Target would generate. It looks like all cars would need to go Chouteau > Theresa > Gratiot?
Also, two loading docs with a very tight auto-turn analysis (see first floor plan shared by Chris)?
Also… if they know another development is coming across the street, why would they choose here? The retail space is behind the apartment when looking from Chouteau and below site line on Grand
As to why they would choose east of Grand...who knows when any development west of Grand might open? And anyway, with all the plans for Iron Hill over the years (by a retail developer, no less) did you ever see an ideal space for a tenant like Target?
^ Thanks for clarification.
Still don't see the square footage and parking even with the downsized CityTarget as part of Steelcote's next phase. Also, I think it would hurt the immediate area in terms of Target would probably want some type of visibility from the major streets which would probably kill any good infill from happening in the long run Nor does that seems to fit steelcote's overall plan.
What is kinda of scary is next Iron Hill proposal essentially becomes a big box store type development kinda like the original Foundry proposal. I didn't like the last proposal but anything is better then what was original proposed for the Foundry site. Iron Hill site is even easier to consider for big box because it is already levelled & ready to build on. And Yes, I should be forever blamed on the blog for suggesting it if it goes that way. However, straying from Steelcote's thread I can see something on the other side/west side of Grand where Papin gets extended and the backside, because of the elevation change, sets up for garage/underground parking entrance parking.
Still don't see the square footage and parking even with the downsized CityTarget as part of Steelcote's next phase. Also, I think it would hurt the immediate area in terms of Target would probably want some type of visibility from the major streets which would probably kill any good infill from happening in the long run Nor does that seems to fit steelcote's overall plan.
What is kinda of scary is next Iron Hill proposal essentially becomes a big box store type development kinda like the original Foundry proposal. I didn't like the last proposal but anything is better then what was original proposed for the Foundry site. Iron Hill site is even easier to consider for big box because it is already levelled & ready to build on. And Yes, I should be forever blamed on the blog for suggesting it if it goes that way. However, straying from Steelcote's thread I can see something on the other side/west side of Grand where Papin gets extended and the backside, because of the elevation change, sets up for garage/underground parking entrance parking.
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The location for the loading docks is awful. Anyone who drives a 70' long tractor trailer will say delivering to this location is going to be a big, big pain in the ass.chriss752 wrote: ↑Aug 20, 2021Cars for the retail space would use the two surface lots because of the potential headache of getting customers to drive down Gratiot from either Spring or Theresa. It wouldn't be that much of a headache, but for some it would be.addxb2 wrote: ↑Aug 20, 2021I would love it and it could be… but I don’t know if Gratiot and Theresa could handle the traffic a Target would generate. It looks like all cars would need to go Chouteau > Theresa > Gratiot?
Also, two loading docs with a very tight auto-turn analysis (see first floor plan shared by Chris)?
Also… if they know another development is coming across the street, why would they choose here? The retail space is behind the apartment when looking from Chouteau and below site line on Grand
The loading docks are in a strange location but I assume they have that worked out one way or another. This updated first floor plan was shared at the Planning Commission meeting the other night and shows the route trucks would take.
As for why a potential Target would choose Steelcote Phase 4 over whatever happens at Iron Hill, it sort of makes sense with the background. Steelcote Phase 4 could be a potential Midtown Target's 4th location. The space is large enough for them as proposed and a groundbreaking is fairly close. So if Target, or whoever, could just hop into a new project that has enough retail space and is ready to go, why would they wait? And I get that it's not ideal since the retail space sits slightly below grade from Grand, but signage and all of that would help people find it pretty easily.
Screen Shot 2021-08-18 at 6.56.10 PM.
1st of all, the driver has to meander into and through the actual parking lot, that is going to be full of cars. Get lined up for backing into the "delivery zone" while 4 wheelers constantly pull up to and stop behind said rig. (They never seem to know what the trucker is doing there in the 1st place, so they ALWAYS sit right in the way) then the driver will need to perform a reverse letter "s" which is a sight side turn in reverse immidiately followed by a blind side turn in reverse. all while not hitting anything. If you look at the positioning of the trucks in this rendering, there is barely just enough room for the truck to sit in the loading dock. Getting deliveries to this retail site will be a very big headache, as most trucking companies do not have a fleet of u-haul size trucks for this kind of design.
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Thinking about backing even a modest size trailer through that alley makes my palms sweat. They need to do whatever it takes to acquire that Distribution International warehouse.
Yeah why not just flip it so that they can reverse from Gratiot
edit: the building isn't on the same level as Gratiot is it?
edit: the building isn't on the same level as Gratiot is it?
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Really impressive seeing this one rising up. Its going to feel like a completely different section of the city once the Topgolf constructions kicks off...
Gratiot is about 20' below where the loading dock would be.flipz wrote: ↑Sep 28, 2021Yeah why not just flip it so that they can reverse from Gratiot
edit: the building isn't on the same level as Gratiot is it?
Looks like Michael Hamburg's pot of gold is somewhere under the Steelcote sign...
NextSTL - Steelcote Shoppers to Subsidize Storage Spaces for Sedans and SUVs
https://nextstl.com/2021/10/steelcote-s ... -and-suvs/
https://nextstl.com/2021/10/steelcote-s ... -and-suvs/
Steelcote.quincunx wrote: ↑Oct 04, 2021NextSTL - Steelcoat Shoppers to Subsidize Storage Spaces for Sedans and SUVs
https://nextstl.com/2021/10/steelcoat-s ... -and-suvs/
To play devil advocate, I'm not sold on the idea that this is really truly a bad thing if the structured parking (obviously not a stand alone garage) is part of a greater development vision that incorporates more dense fill in the immediate area. Especially if it can lead to redevelopment along Chouteau itself. Yes, probably wishful thinking that a fast food joint willing to give its prime corner but you could see more mixed use, commercial and residential going in if some of the parking is already in place for non residential use.
Do you mean the surface lots? The developer said the structured parking is for residents only.
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I wish these TIFs contributed substantially more money to district beautification and maintenance. Too many of the medians and landscaped areas get done on these projects but eventually are rife with neglect. Look at the Jefferson overpass, Jefferson Medians at Lafayette Square, South Grand and FPP. And that is only a small sample size. Outside of the Wash U Med Campus none really help the area. To me this sort of thing, along with sidewalks, and pedestrian bridges is exactly what TIF should pay for, not subsidizing the parking structure.
Yes, surface lots seem to be place holders for a developer that driven to build more density then less & so far been able to follow through on a couple good project and about to break ground on this project..quincunx wrote: ↑Oct 05, 2021Do you mean the surface lots? The developer said the structured parking is for residents only.
I also might be very well mistaken but the number of spots in the structured parking seems more then adequate for resident and assume that it was also spots for the commercial use.
The developer was very clear the structured parking was not for retail partons.
Is this a clever hint that the retail tenant is going to be some kind of Dollywood eat-ertainment concept...?quincunx wrote: ↑Oct 05, 2021The developer was very clear the structured parking was not for retail partons.
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Does anyone here experience the "transit" experience along this corridor outside of a car? Would anyone with a car opt into that experience after nightfall at any point? If so, would you be 100% comfortable with your significant other or (reasonable age) child doing the same?
If the answer to everything above isn't a truthful "yes," we need to examine everything else involved much more seriously than we do a parking garage in a new apartment building.
If public transit is a safer, cheaper, more convenient alternative to cars, buildings would require far less parking. It isn't any of these things at current. Allocate energy effectively. Stop trying to treat the symptoms and treat the illness.
Capital will be allocated efficiently. If you want parking to not be required, create the scenario where it isn't. Don't sit around and b**** to developers and investors that the public infrastructure supports something it doesn't. What exactly do you expect them to do? Create their own public transit?
If the answer to everything above isn't a truthful "yes," we need to examine everything else involved much more seriously than we do a parking garage in a new apartment building.
If public transit is a safer, cheaper, more convenient alternative to cars, buildings would require far less parking. It isn't any of these things at current. Allocate energy effectively. Stop trying to treat the symptoms and treat the illness.
Capital will be allocated efficiently. If you want parking to not be required, create the scenario where it isn't. Don't sit around and b**** to developers and investors that the public infrastructure supports something it doesn't. What exactly do you expect them to do? Create their own public transit?
I suggest spending CID money on making Grand and Chouteau safer for people and adding bus shelters at nearby bus stops would be a higher returning public improvement than underpricing structured parking for residents by that amount.
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Every bus shelter I pass by is littered with trash despite very obvious and extremely available open trash cans. The shelters are tagged and glass is broken. Graffiti litters most surfaces. I for one am shocked more investment isn't allocated.quincunx wrote: ↑Oct 06, 2021I suggest spending CID money on making Grand and Chouteau safer for people and adding bus shelters at nearby bus stops would be a higher returning public improvement than underpricing structured parking for residents by that amount.
If many people using the system are FOR WHATEVER REASON completely devoid of caring for society at large, it is a losing proposition. Parking isn't the disease, it occurs because no one is addressing the problem.
Edit: You said creating safer spaces which I agree with, however, I do not find the solution to be one solved by physical space investment.
I pass by trash from cars all the time sometimes even pieces of cars.
Here we're seeing a plan to underprice parking by $6.5M for residents with tax dollars from shoppers. That could go for other things, though within the confines of a CID it has to go to remediating blight and public improvements within the district.
Here we're seeing a plan to underprice parking by $6.5M for residents with tax dollars from shoppers. That could go for other things, though within the confines of a CID it has to go to remediating blight and public improvements within the district.