Why would a bridge or tunnel be required instead of a regular at grade crossing with gates? This far out the trains run only every 20min and the access road here is no wider (and certainly no busier) than the at-grade crossings in say the Central West End.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jul 18, 2021Terminal expansion and proximity to Boeing. Plus you’d have to build a bridge over or a tunnel under the access road. So it’s not like just building it closer to the building is cost effective.BellaVilla wrote: ↑Jul 16, 2021This is just incurring an extra and ineffective long term cost. Why not just build it right the first time? As others have pointed out, this is still in the design phase.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jul 16, 2021Pedestrian improvements such as canopies or one very long canopy, curb bump outs at the main drive, and use of landscaping like arborvitaes to help reduce wind shouldn't be hard to add in the future. Heck, even an enclosed walkway (with heat and AC) with people movers is probably easy to build once public transit traffic increases.
I'd imagine some of the money we get will be spent on replacing the bridges that have been waiting to be replaced by the City for a few years now (Southwest Avenue Bridge, Columbia @ Southwest?, Union over Forest Park Parkway and the MetroLink, Compton Viaduct). Those are the ones that come to mind. I'd also hope that the City looks at using some of the money to make the Grand and Forest Park intersection at grade. After that, I imagine the City will target the roads that need to be repaved/rebuilt. Then after all of that, maybe we'll see some of the money go towards either North-South MetroLink or convert the route to BRT and get building.ldai_phs wrote: ↑Aug 16, 2021Infra bill = what for stl
For St. Louis County, I imagine it will be the same thing when it comes to roads and bridges. Transit expansion in the county seems dead the moment it is considered.
I don’t think anyone knows yet. The bill hasn’t even passed the House and it’s far from certain it’s a done deal.
What we do know is that St. Louis County’s transit account is sitting on over $110 million dollars and averages about $89 million in collections per year (pre-pandemic). The City is currently sitting on over $30 million in its transit account, which produces roughly $12 million per year (again, pre-pandemic). Sam Page mentioned to Tony Messenger earlier this year it was long past time the region take a good look at transit expansion. To say MetroLink is dead in the County seems awfully premature.
I believe Columbia/Southwest and Compton are already funded. Lindell/Union is already in design as well.
What we do know is that St. Louis County’s transit account is sitting on over $110 million dollars and averages about $89 million in collections per year (pre-pandemic). The City is currently sitting on over $30 million in its transit account, which produces roughly $12 million per year (again, pre-pandemic). Sam Page mentioned to Tony Messenger earlier this year it was long past time the region take a good look at transit expansion. To say MetroLink is dead in the County seems awfully premature.
I believe Columbia/Southwest and Compton are already funded. Lindell/Union is already in design as well.
Bridges and viaducts. Plus, Compton will get a protected cycle track.ldai_phs wrote: ↑Aug 16, 2021What are those things you mentioned at the end?
^ Edit. No, these are just bridge projects. Though Lindell/Union and Compton do cross over MetroLink, they’re just being replaced because they’re old.
Where would metrolink be expanded tosc4mayor wrote:I don’t think anyone knows yet. The bill hasn’t even passed the House and it’s far from certain it’s a done deal.
What we do know is that St. Louis County’s transit account is sitting on over $110 million dollars and averages about $89 million in collections per year (pre-pandemic). The City is currently sitting on over $30 million in its transit account, which produces roughly $12 million per year (again, pre-pandemic). Sam Page mentioned to Tony Messenger earlier this year it was long past time the region take a good look at transit expansion. To say MetroLink is dead in the County seems awfully premature.
I believe Columbia/Southwest and Compton are already funded. Lindell/Union is already in design as well.
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^ Metro released a long range plan years ago that detailed many potential expansions. Some have been studied, some have not. That information can be found scatted across the internet.
Long story short for the County: MetroNorth, MetroSouth, and Westport. My preference would be to complete MetroNorth and MetroSouth which would be simple extensions of the existing Blue Line. 11.5 miles from Clayton to Florissant and 7.5 miles from Landsdowne to South County Center (via Affton), finally completing Cross-County. Another option for MetroSouth was the RDP corridor, but I'm not crazy about that routing.
Long story short for the County: MetroNorth, MetroSouth, and Westport. My preference would be to complete MetroNorth and MetroSouth which would be simple extensions of the existing Blue Line. 11.5 miles from Clayton to Florissant and 7.5 miles from Landsdowne to South County Center (via Affton), finally completing Cross-County. Another option for MetroSouth was the RDP corridor, but I'm not crazy about that routing.
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Does anyone have a map of the proposed route for southern expansion to South County Center? That would be great but RDP would be path of least resistance, IMO.
^ I don't have it, but I have seen maps of both the RDP routing and the freight rail routing thru Affton, which I prefer. I'm not sure RDP would be the path of least resistance. Any construction in a city park would require a city-wide vote, not sure if that holds true for a transit line though. I would imagine it would pass anyway, but would take additional time.
Edit: I also don't think the MetroSouth alternative went to South County Center. I took it there when I was checking the milage since it seems like a logical place to end it, but that's probably not official. It could pass SoCo Center and pick up the 55 ROW and end at Butler Hill. I do believe that was originally proposed at one point with the RDP alignment. Doesn't seem worth it to take it that far south though, in my humble opinion.
Edit: I also don't think the MetroSouth alternative went to South County Center. I took it there when I was checking the milage since it seems like a logical place to end it, but that's probably not official. It could pass SoCo Center and pick up the 55 ROW and end at Butler Hill. I do believe that was originally proposed at one point with the RDP alignment. Doesn't seem worth it to take it that far south though, in my humble opinion.
A couple renderings of the two alternatives - either the current railroad ROW through Affton or the RDP route:Black02AltimaSE wrote: ↑Aug 17, 2021Does anyone have a map of the proposed route for southern expansion to South County Center? That would be great but RDP would be path of least resistance, IMO.
I agree with SC on preferring the Affton route. But also agree with Chris, that there seems to be little to no interest in MetroLink expansion by County leadership.
Some more detail on the "potential" RDP route:
Still believe N/S would be best as BRT or Streetcar.
Is St. Charles county completely dead? Would love to see Red extended there instead of another stub.
Is St. Charles county completely dead? Would love to see Red extended there instead of another stub.
A proposal to extend to St. Charles is dead on arrival.ldai_phs wrote:Still believe N/S would be best as BRT or Streetcar.
Is St. Charles county completely dead? Would love to see Red extended there instead of another stub.
Hmm. I’ve never seen the Affton alternative route laid out on a map before. I think it would be beneficial than going down 55 to Butler Hill Road. I feel like more people would likely to take the Metro in Affton than in Bella Villa, Mehlville and wherever else. I also think this route should stop at McKenzie or Route 21.wabash wrote:A couple renderings of the two alternatives - either the current railroad ROW through Affton or the RDP route:Black02AltimaSE wrote: ↑Aug 17, 2021Does anyone have a map of the proposed route for southern expansion to South County Center? That would be great but RDP would be path of least resistance, IMO.
I agree with SC on preferring the Affton route. But also agree with Chris, that there seems to be little to no interest in MetroLink expansion by County leadership.
Some more detail on the "potential" RDP route:
The one thing I don’t understand is how they’d get the train to run alongside 55 after River Des Peres. I don’t think it’s ever been explained if they’ll go elevated on that merge or go underground. Same with running the Metro along River Des Peres. Would it be elevated after Shrewsbury to 55, or would it be at-grade till 55?
If the County would like to expand the MetroLink, I think the best choice right now is to do a Blue Line Connector to the Airport. Run alongside 170 and then merge with the red line at 70. You’d get some of the Daniel Boone extension in there and also serve the new buildings at Delmar and Olive in addition to established business and other corridors at Ladue Road, Page, Midland (or St. Charles Rock Road), and Natural Bridge.
St. Charles doesn’t want it and doesn’t need it. Even the mere suggestion brings out the “those people from STL” comments from St. Chuck people. That would be an extremely poor use of regional resources.
Any additional suburban expansions should prioritize denser Florissant and South County over exurban St. Charles.
Any additional suburban expansions should prioritize denser Florissant and South County over exurban St. Charles.
Any kind of routing to south county via Shrewsbury seems kind of useless.
It's already 31 minutes from Shrewsbury to the Stadium stop. It's a 15-minute drive from South County mall to Busch Stadium, so you're going to be talking about providing an option that's like 3 times as long to take the Metro from South County Mall to Busch Stadium (not counting the drive from your suburban home to the park-and-ride lot).
The blue line is mostly useless sprawl past Clayton anyway (Maplewood has untapped potential, but they're squandering it with more suburban junk between their station and their downtown).
Spending insane sums of money connecting mostly sprawl to other sprawl, which will be useful for very, very few people with a choice, seems like a waste. Who will ride this South County-Clayton-downtown routing, and to what? Nobody's going to drive from their home in south county to the metro stop, take it to the Brentwood Promenade, and hike from that stop to the accessible areas.
Sprawl to sprawl transit doesn't work.
It's already 31 minutes from Shrewsbury to the Stadium stop. It's a 15-minute drive from South County mall to Busch Stadium, so you're going to be talking about providing an option that's like 3 times as long to take the Metro from South County Mall to Busch Stadium (not counting the drive from your suburban home to the park-and-ride lot).
The blue line is mostly useless sprawl past Clayton anyway (Maplewood has untapped potential, but they're squandering it with more suburban junk between their station and their downtown).
Spending insane sums of money connecting mostly sprawl to other sprawl, which will be useful for very, very few people with a choice, seems like a waste. Who will ride this South County-Clayton-downtown routing, and to what? Nobody's going to drive from their home in south county to the metro stop, take it to the Brentwood Promenade, and hike from that stop to the accessible areas.
Sprawl to sprawl transit doesn't work.
I was thinking the same thing. Going west the coming back east to go south seems like a long way around that isn’t going to help.eee123 wrote: ↑Aug 17, 2021Any kind of routing to south county via Shrewsbury seems kind of useless.
It's already 31 minutes from Shrewsbury to the Stadium stop. It's a 15-minute drive from South County mall to Busch Stadium, so you're going to be talking about providing an option that's like 3 times as long to take the Metro from South County Mall to Busch Stadium (not counting the drive from your suburban home to the park-and-ride lot).
The blue line is mostly useless sprawl past Clayton anyway (Maplewood has untapped potential, but they're squandering it with more suburban junk between their station and their downtown).
Spending insane sums of money connecting mostly sprawl to other sprawl, which will be useful for very, very few people with a choice, seems like a waste. Who will ride this South County-Clayton-downtown routing, and to what? Nobody's going to drive from their home in south county to the metro stop, take it to the Brentwood Promenade, and hike from that stop to the accessible areas.
Sprawl to sprawl transit doesn't work.
I wasn’t talking about downtown bound traffic…but people that commute from suburb to suburb. People riding to the airport, Clayton, North County, etc. Not everybody that rides transit is going downtown, which seems to be a glaring hole in the region’s transit planning considering downtown isn’t and isn’t likely to be the region’s center ever again.
I wouldn’t ride from South County to downtown via MetroLink either. I would frequently use a North to South County routing that wouldn’t force me to trek east into the city to get there though (I live in Clayton).
I wouldn’t ride from South County to downtown via MetroLink either. I would frequently use a North to South County routing that wouldn’t force me to trek east into the city to get there though (I live in Clayton).
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Is that proposed line through Affton basically following Mackenzie? I'm having trouble picturing its path.
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I have a couple different takes on extending Crosscounty to south county via Shrewsburyeee123 wrote: ↑Aug 17, 2021Any kind of routing to south county via Shrewsbury seems kind of useless.
It's already 31 minutes from Shrewsbury to the Stadium stop. It's a 15-minute drive from South County mall to Busch Stadium, so you're going to be talking about providing an option that's like 3 times as long to take the Metro from South County Mall to Busch Stadium (not counting the drive from your suburban home to the park-and-ride lot).
The blue line is mostly useless sprawl past Clayton anyway (Maplewood has untapped potential, but they're squandering it with more suburban junk between their station and their downtown).
Spending insane sums of money connecting mostly sprawl to other sprawl, which will be useful for very, very few people with a choice, seems like a waste. Who will ride this South County-Clayton-downtown routing, and to what? Nobody's going to drive from their home in south county to the metro stop, take it to the Brentwood Promenade, and hike from that stop to the accessible areas.
Sprawl to sprawl transit doesn't work.
First and foremost any extension from Shrewsbury to South County is not intended to serve downtown but instead serve the south county community to the second biggest employment center in the region/biggest in the county in that being Clayton CBD. Clayton CBD still continues to grow with another office tower(s) going up and who knows, the region still might see Centene move ahead in the future with more CBD expansion. Extending and adding more transit that will support Clayton CBD to me is a better outcome then seeing more West County stand alone office buildings and developments.
A 2-3 station extension from Shrewsbury to I-55 would be above ground, within some common RoW for most of it (whether River Des Peres/ I55 or Expand BNSF right of way), a much more reasonable price point to construct vs the initial construction to Shrewsbury w tunnels & extensive utilities & road rebuild. In other words, one of the more affordable expansions to existing system. Plus you would not a need to add more or different trainsets or additional support facilities to run the trains the extra miles. Metro and the county with existing funding could probably facilitate a plan that would garner Federal matching funds if infrastructure bill passes. Nor would it hurt N-S in terms of future Federal Funds. Where as I can see Daniel Boone extension a much higher price tag, take a much bigger Federal grant and probably put St Louis back in the line for years to come on next round of Fed Funds
Yes, I agree Maplewood and Shrewsbury been a disappointment. But I think their still might be some hope between Richmond Heights and Brentwood stations as their is still room for TOD development/or TOD redevelopment down the road. Heck its taken a long time to happen in the City and now your are slowly starting to see it.
So i don't see it as a sprawl to sprawl investment but meaningful way to expand existing fixed transit in the South County as a cost that would be reasonable.
My second choice would be to extend Metrolink spine another two or three stops west to Earth City/Riverport areas as part of a grander Airport concourse replacement plan to consolidate all gates in new T1 linear concourse & incorporate a single underground metrolink airport where you simple walk off or on the train to escalators that take you to & from the ticket. counter/baggage claim. Of course my plan puts Lambert under a combined City/County Port Authority/shared ownership. So that pipe dream will remain a pipe dream