Just curious; why paint the brick at all? Natural materials are best presented in their natural state, IMO.
If SP ever stops posting, I'm leaving this forum forever. Incredible work though, Chris.
^ Thanks, Chris. Really good stuff (minus the Chouteau's Landing bit), can't wait to hear more. Any idea how much work Nephews needs?
It feels like the neighborhood needs one Chroma like apartment building in order to take off. Just enough to apply weight and proof of concept of the area.
Great work Chris
Great work Chris
Absolutely. Those huge swathes of parking lots south of Busch are prime locations for such a project. A 5-7 story building on that white castle site or on the lot adjacent to Game 6 would do wonders.addxb2 wrote: ↑Jul 30, 2021It feels like the neighborhood needs one Chroma like apartment building in order to take off. Just enough to apply weight and proof of concept of the area.
Great work Chris
Two different shades of brick won't really blend well once the yellow brick is cleaned up and new windows and doors are installed. But I guess neither does painting. That's what our consultant is for.framer wrote: ↑Jul 30, 2021Just curious; why paint the brick at all? Natural materials are best presented in their natural state, IMO.
He's one of this forum's treasures.aprice wrote: ↑Jul 30, 2021If SP ever stops posting, I'm leaving this forum forever. Incredible work though, Chris.
740 South 4th Street's first floor is in ok shape. Needs some touching up here and there, but nothing major. The second floor though is in pretty bad shape. Ceiling pieces are crumbling away (from water damage and from the fact that the upstairs window has been constantly open for years now). There's some small dead animals on the second floor too. Floors are moldy near the windows and there's some mold in some walls. So the second floor would be completely gutted and overhauled. Outside, new windows and getting rid of that got awful bright red paint will take place.EssTeeEll wrote: ↑Jul 30, 2021^ Thanks, Chris. Really good stuff (minus the Chouteau's Landing bit), can't wait to hear more. Any idea how much work Nephews needs?
The building at 742 South 4th Street needs a good exterior cleaning, new roof shingles, and new windows (especially on the backside). The commercial space on the first floor just needs a good cleaning after years of being a food related space. The red paint will either be removed or new, appropriate brick red paint would be added. That building will be the easier of the two to fix up.
I, along with a few others, think that the area could support one small size (40 units), two medium size (75 and 150 units), one large (250 units+) apartment building. When looking at the area, right now you have space to build those 4 apartment buildings and a row of about 12-14 townhouses (depending on the size). It would be preferred if all of these went up at the same time, but we'll see what happens on that side. I've been in contact with two different groups about doing stuff like this in this part of Downtown and we all agree that it would ago a long way in connecting Downtown to Soulard.jay23 wrote: ↑Jul 30, 2021Absolutely. Those huge swathes of parking lots south of Busch are prime locations for such a project. A 5-7 story building on that white castle site or on the lot adjacent to Game 6 would do wonders.addxb2 wrote: ↑Jul 30, 2021It feels like the neighborhood needs one Chroma like apartment building in order to take off. Just enough to apply weight and proof of concept of the area.
Great work Chris
The biggest hump to get over is the parking lot at 800 South 4th Street. Terry wants $4 million for that lot and multiple offers were made and he shot them down right away. So he's firm on that price. That site is large enough to support a Hudson or Chelsea sized apartment building with a design more fitting with the area.
As for the White Castle lot, I'd love to see that site developed but they're ok for now. As I've repeatedly said, BP is the biggest issue in the area along with the always increasing issue of drugged homeless people that live under the 3rd Street Highway. Closing BP and getting the drugged homeless people help and out of this part of downtown will go a long way in improving the safety and cleanliness of the area. We have hours of security camera footage of the homeless and many customers at BP throwing their trash on the ground, urinating on the side of 900 South 4th Street, fighting people, and throwing things at cars on 4th Street.
More will definitely come out over the next few months.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Jul 30, 2021Great news, Chris! Well done. Looking forward to hearing more.
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Between them the White Castle and BP have about the same acreage as Terry. I wonder if they'd sell for less? Sure, they're occupied parcels, but a fast food joint and a filling station are really not much more than just ground cover. Add in the two splinter parcels south of the bridge and you're actually on the upside over Terry and both of those might get better with the TRRA tearing the remains of the auto ramps out. Anyway, good luck to you and I'm sure you and your compatriots will get this figured out.chriss752 wrote: ↑Jul 30, 2021The biggest hump to get over is the parking lot at 800 South 4th Street. Terry wants $4 million for that lot and multiple offers were made and he shot them down right away. So he's firm on that price. That site is large enough to support a Hudson or Chelsea sized apartment building with a design more fitting with the area.
My little master plan for the area shows BP going away and being replaced with a pocket park/garden similar to Piazza Imo but different and more in tune with the neighborhood (industrial and Blues/Jazz themed). As for White Castle, they want a lot of money for their parcel and aren't willing to sell right now. My master plan has a 4-story commercial building on that parcel. The masterplan also includes a single parking garage behind the Field House, which would free up a bunch of parking lots in the area. I know not a lot of people like parking garages on this forum, but if it reduces parking lot property values, then let's do it and do it decently right (ground floor activation, interesting looking façade/kinetic art, etc).symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Jul 31, 2021Between them the White Castle and BP have about the same acreage as Terry. I wonder if they'd sell for less? Sure, they're occupied parcels, but a fast food joint and a filling station are really not much more than just ground cover. Add in the two splinter parcels south of the bridge and you're actually on the upside over Terry and both of those might get better with the TRRA tearing the remains of the auto ramps out. Anyway, good luck to you and I'm sure you and your compatriots will get this figured out.chriss752 wrote: ↑Jul 30, 2021The biggest hump to get over is the parking lot at 800 South 4th Street. Terry wants $4 million for that lot and multiple offers were made and he shot them down right away. So he's firm on that price. That site is large enough to support a Hudson or Chelsea sized apartment building with a design more fitting with the area.
Terry dropped the price on his lot by $400,000 to $3.6M. I know where his low-end is and it's still high but more accessible to developers who want to invest in the area by building new. I just presented to one developer this afternoon the vision for the area and why the 800 block is one of the key pieces in the puzzle. They seem interested, so we'll see where it goes.
One more thing, and this is an idea that I've been kicking around but haven't told anyone about.
Would it be a good idea, in anyone's mind on this forum, to pursue a miniature food hall/bar space in one of the buildings in the area South of Downtown? In Kansas City, there's a concept similar to this called "Parlor" and I'd like to explore doing something like that here. My idea would have 5 or 6 food stalls, a main central bar, and a rooftop space for people to eat and socialize. The goal with this would be to create a space for small restaurant owners, or food truck operators with no brick and mortar location, to set up shop and serve a wide range of people a variety of great food. An attempt would be made to tie everything on 4th and Broadway (and maybe even Chouteau's Landing) together with this in a bid to activate the area.
Because really, this area can't be thriving on just bars. You need more restaurants. You need residents. You need more office workers. And since the area isn't really developed right now, office, retail, and residential space could be offered at a lower price than those found in Soulard and Downtown.
I'm open to, and encourage, feedback on this idea. I haven't formally pitched this to anyone yet beyond those on this forum and even then, this is the cliff notes version. I have 2 sites chosen for this concept and believe that either site would be a perfect fit. Both sites would require huge sidewalk improvements, introduction of street trees, and brighter LED streetlights. But the theme of those improvements would carry on from 4th and Broadway.
Would it be a good idea, in anyone's mind on this forum, to pursue a miniature food hall/bar space in one of the buildings in the area South of Downtown? In Kansas City, there's a concept similar to this called "Parlor" and I'd like to explore doing something like that here. My idea would have 5 or 6 food stalls, a main central bar, and a rooftop space for people to eat and socialize. The goal with this would be to create a space for small restaurant owners, or food truck operators with no brick and mortar location, to set up shop and serve a wide range of people a variety of great food. An attempt would be made to tie everything on 4th and Broadway (and maybe even Chouteau's Landing) together with this in a bid to activate the area.
Because really, this area can't be thriving on just bars. You need more restaurants. You need residents. You need more office workers. And since the area isn't really developed right now, office, retail, and residential space could be offered at a lower price than those found in Soulard and Downtown.
I'm open to, and encourage, feedback on this idea. I haven't formally pitched this to anyone yet beyond those on this forum and even then, this is the cliff notes version. I have 2 sites chosen for this concept and believe that either site would be a perfect fit. Both sites would require huge sidewalk improvements, introduction of street trees, and brighter LED streetlights. But the theme of those improvements would carry on from 4th and Broadway.
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I think something like this would be pretty successful - but it also matters where it is placed.
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^^I think it's a neat idea and I could see something like that working well with the graffiti garage and wire and iron spaces. It seems pretty clear the area can work as there's a small, but growing node of food and music spaces there. Your space would have some particularly strong outdoor potential. Anything that brings more people to the neighborhood is probably a win.
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A little mini food hall/market would be a pretty fantastic tennant to the mentioned garage IMO. My fiance has family in Charlotte and I visit the 7th St. Public Market every time.
For being in the base of a parking garage it's a fantastic public amenity and always bustling. Granted it's also perfectly incorporated into their greenway/light rail (the station right outside the doors is so beautiful and urban) but it could be a nice template to work off of.
I could see this place packed before and after every Cardinals game and it's close enough to get some office lunch traffic too.
For being in the base of a parking garage it's a fantastic public amenity and always bustling. Granted it's also perfectly incorporated into their greenway/light rail (the station right outside the doors is so beautiful and urban) but it could be a nice template to work off of.
I could see this place packed before and after every Cardinals game and it's close enough to get some office lunch traffic too.
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I love mixed use food stall/cart concepts. Rooftop sounds cool too - but less accessible if you are trying to cash in on the walk-up crowd? We used to bring Blues City Deli to the baseball games (back when I went to 30 games/year), and we always said there needed to be a quick non-fast food place right next to the stadium that you can get before you walk into the game.
One of my favorite places in Portland is called Cartopia. The original idea for it was to be a "restaurant incubator" and I think it had been that for at least a little while until the restaurants started to be so successful they kept their locations. Most of the carts are pretty much stationary and owned by the operators. I was really hoping they were going to do something like this at the Liberty Bell location with the frontage of the building remaining up (kind of a fun front door to an outdoor space).
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One of my favorite places in Portland is called Cartopia. The original idea for it was to be a "restaurant incubator" and I think it had been that for at least a little while until the restaurants started to be so successful they kept their locations. Most of the carts are pretty much stationary and owned by the operators. I was really hoping they were going to do something like this at the Liberty Bell location with the frontage of the building remaining up (kind of a fun front door to an outdoor space).
Pizza by the slice with a minimal local beer list.
It's so scarce in St. Louis.
It's so scarce in St. Louis.
Graffiti Garage is to be a multi-purpose venue (specializing in live music concerts) and bar. So the locations I have in mind for the food hall concept are nearby.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Aug 01, 2021^^I think it's a neat idea and I could see something like that working well with the graffiti garage and wire and iron spaces. It seems pretty clear the area can work as there's a small, but growing node of food and music spaces there. Your space would have some particularly strong outdoor potential. Anything that brings more people to the neighborhood is probably a win.
The rooftop portion would be a place for people to sit and socialize if they wish. The food hall/stall concept would be perfect for people wanting to stop in and get a quick bite. Visitors will have the ability to sit inside, at the rooftop, or take it to go. Individual stalls would allow GrubHub style services if they chose. But really the rooftop would be an amenity for those who would like to utilize it. Not to mention the fact that it would be a nice vantage point to see the skyline and trains passing by on the multiple bridges in the area.pattimagee wrote: ↑Aug 02, 2021I love mixed use food stall/cart concepts. Rooftop sounds cool too - but less accessible if you are trying to cash in on the walk-up crowd? We used to bring Blues City Deli to the baseball games (back when I went to 30 games/year), and we always said there needed to be a quick non-fast food place right next to the stadium that you can get before you walk into the game.
One of my favorite places in Portland is called Cartopia. The original idea for it was to be a "restaurant incubator" and I think it had been that for at least a little while until the restaurants started to be so successful they kept their locations. Most of the carts are pretty much stationary and owned by the operators. I was really hoping they were going to do something like this at the Liberty Bell location with the frontage of the building remaining up (kind of a fun front door to an outdoor space).
The outdoor Cartopia space that you have pictured is what my desire is for the outdoor patio/biergarten space at 744 South 4th Street. Similar landscaping and benches. But ultimately, those sorts of things will be left up to the renter, but features like that aren't that expensive. Some rock, picnic bench tables, planters with little bushes and plants, strung overhead lights, and a wooden fence would make the back area shine.
The idea of a restaurant incubator was considered for the Food Hall idea and I actually want to include a space or two just for that purpose. Let someone live their dream of having a food stall with assistance by property ownership. And once they're successful, they can either remain but lose incubator status or move out and into a larger space to address their increased business needs (but preferably would move within the neighborhood).
Pizza by the slice sounds like something that could be successful with the lunch and late night crowd. A minimal local beer selection would probably be better suited for the central bar at the food hall, graffiti garage, and other businesses in the area.bwcrow1s wrote: ↑Aug 03, 2021Pizza by the slice with a minimal local beer list.
It's so scarce in St. Louis.