urbanSTL

sc4mayor wrote: ↑

Mar 23, 2021

From another thread: Appreciate you calling my 3 second doodle a "rendering" haha.  All of this is fine in my personal opinion.  The Westport line should be at the bottom of the barrel (if it should even be in the barrel) as far as this region's transit priorities go.  It's a low ridership, low density route surrounded almost exclusively by large industrial uses, especially once you get north of 340.  What a total waste of resources building that thing would be even if it kept the original routing.

I hear you. But I think there's a good case for the closer-in portion of the Daniel Boone alignment. That would hit:
Maryland Ave. - Basically the western portion of DT Clayton, which recently had The Barton go up and may see more construction/investment with the Brown Shoe HQ on the block.
Delmar & 170 - Which has multiple adjacent mixed-use projects in the pipeline.
Olive & 170 - Which now has multiple mixed-use projects in the pipeline.
Baur & Research Blvd. - Which, while admittedly "low density.... surrounded almost exclusively by large industrial" is home to the County's dreamt of 39 North AgTech Innovation District, which could migrate its way north toward Baur from the current anchor tenants of Danforth Plant Science and Benson Hill. It would also serve as a park-n-ride station for Lindbergh. 

Certainly not anywhere close to the density or walkable of a N-S line. But in terms of expansion options for the County I don't think that initial section of Daniel Boone is a bad one. At the end of the day, the "barrel" of likely (i.e. existing ROW) County expansion options is pretty shallow. In other words, maybe being at the bottom isn't too far from the top. 

Instead of a N/S metrolink, why not just a S metrolink that runs down Gravois and Chippewa? It'd be nice to have the Metrolink finally connect people from where they live with where they work, as compared to what we have now which is not a single residential stop between FP-Deballiver stop and the Stadium stop. The idea should be to connect people with where they live to where they work/play/shop/etc. and the only people for whom the metrolink really serves in that capacity are the folks that live on the blue line from the FP-Deballiver stop to Shrewsbury.

Something I've been thinking about lately in regards to the Metrolink is how it doesn't take you to some of our cities biggest attractions or most popular districts.

The Zoo, Art Museum, Soulard, the Botanical Gardens, Tower Grove Park, The Hill, these are all dense areas and roughly in an W/E pattern that could run a line that connects to the rest of the system at the Civic Center or at the Forest Park station as well.

npav wrote: ↑

May 12, 2021

Something I've been thinking about lately in regards to the Metrolink is how it doesn't take you to some of our cities biggest attractions or most popular districts.

The Zoo, Art Museum, Soulard, the Botanical Gardens, Tower Grove Park, The Hill, these are all dense areas and roughly in an W/E pattern that could run a line that connects to the rest of the system at the Civic Center or at the Forest Park station as well.

Here, here! Its because we took the low hanging fruit when the TRRA gave up that ROW. Instead of making the best investment, we chose the cheap investment. The TRRA line is solid for the downtown stops but the Grand and CWE stops are terrible imo. FFS, the Grand Center stop is a dangerous (I'm talking cars, not people) 15 minute walk from the Fox Theater, Sheldon, Jazz at the Bistro, etc. So, how can you expect anyone to take the metro to Grand Center?

BellaVilla wrote: ↑

May 12, 2021

npav wrote: ↑

May 12, 2021

Something I've been thinking about lately in regards to the Metrolink is how it doesn't take you to some of our cities biggest attractions or most popular districts.

The Zoo, Art Museum, Soulard, the Botanical Gardens, Tower Grove Park, The Hill, these are all dense areas and roughly in an W/E pattern that could run a line that connects to the rest of the system at the Civic Center or at the Forest Park station as well.

Here, here! Its because we took the low hanging fruit when the TRRA gave up that ROW. Instead of making the best investment, we chose the cheap investment. The TRRA line is solid for the downtown stops but the Grand and CWE stops are terrible imo. FFS, the Grand Center stop is a dangerous (I'm talking cars, not people) 15 minute walk from the Fox Theater, Sheldon, Jazz at the Bistro, etc. So, how can you expect anyone to take the metro to Grand Center?

This has always been another complaint of mine, most the stops don't actually put you where you want to be, but a solid 10 minute walk from the actual activity.  If the CWE stop actually put you on the commercial strip of Eulicid, or the Grand stop was Grand and Forest Park instead of below a bridge, there would be much more foot traffic around these stops and likely increase the safety aspects of the Metrolink in the process.

Other examples:

- Richmond Heights doesn't take you to the galleria, but puts you on the other side of a highway and major road.
- Maplewood-Manchester doesn't put you by all the restaurants, but in a bunch of people's backyards and by a park and ride.

npav wrote: ↑

May 12, 2021

BellaVilla wrote: ↑

May 12, 2021

npav wrote: ↑

May 12, 2021

Something I've been thinking about lately in regards to the Metrolink is how it doesn't take you to some of our cities biggest attractions or most popular districts.

The Zoo, Art Museum, Soulard, the Botanical Gardens, Tower Grove Park, The Hill, these are all dense areas and roughly in an W/E pattern that could run a line that connects to the rest of the system at the Civic Center or at the Forest Park station as well.

Here, here! Its because we took the low hanging fruit when the TRRA gave up that ROW. Instead of making the best investment, we chose the cheap investment. The TRRA line is solid for the downtown stops but the Grand and CWE stops are terrible imo. FFS, the Grand Center stop is a dangerous (I'm talking cars, not people) 15 minute walk from the Fox Theater, Sheldon, Jazz at the Bistro, etc. So, how can you expect anyone to take the metro to Grand Center?

This has always been another complaint of mine, most the stops don't actually put you where you want to be, but a solid 10 minute walk from the actual activity.  If the CWE stop actually put you on the commercial strip of Eulicid, or the Grand stop was Grand and Forest Park instead of below a bridge, there would be much more foot traffic around these stops and likely increase the safety aspects of the Metrolink in the process.

Who could have ever imagined that people wouldn't want to wait for a train down in a viaduct, next to a switchyard?

Can you imagine the world of difference it would have made to even have just by passed the TRRA line between Union Station and the CWE in favor running its underground west of Union Station until emerging at FPPW and running down the median before meeting back up with the TRRA ROW in Forst Park?

BRT or streetcar might be better to hit these

^ & ^^ I have a completely different take.   The region got a light rail line running through the regions core at a fraction of cost as well as the fact that it is mostly a separated system to allow for higher speeds and better headways if desired.  At same time it still connects an amazing number of things from employment centers to major event centers to major institutions with the airport(s).   Plus, as you see with Expo type development that is finally happening in the city is that residents will be better served by metrolink current route..      

Where I see the downfall in recent years is a lack of developing let alone a vision for north south corridors in the city whether it simply be increased bus frequency on Grand Ave serving Grand Ave Station, or BRT and or even some low floor modern streetcar.  I think their is a hint of it with upgraded buses but comes way short.   In the county, its even sadder with a lack of optimizing development around and not extending the Cross County line.  

My two cents, drop the N-S as a semi quasi light rail line altogether and use same route as a streetcar/BRT hybrid where as you can do the streetcar in the city and overlay with county BRT/bus service.   Not uncommon practice to see buses run on existing Muni lines in San Fran.  Look at future N-S light rail utilizing existing freight railroad RoW for south city/county and the I-70 corridor for north city/county.   

dredger wrote: ↑

May 12, 2021

^ & ^^ I have a completely different take.   The region got a light rail line running through the regions core at a fraction of cost as well as the fact that it is mostly a separated system to allow for higher speeds and better headways if desired.  At same time it still connects an amazing number of things from employment centers to major event centers to major institutions with the airport(s).   Plus, as you see with Expo type development that is finally happening in the city is that residents will be better served by metrolink current route..      

Where I see the downfall in recent years is a lack of developing let alone a vision for north south corridors in the city whether it simply be increased bus frequency on Grand Ave serving Grand Ave Station, or BRT and or even some low floor modern streetcar.  I think their is a hint of it with upgraded buses but comes way short.   In the county, its even sadder with a lack of optimizing development around and not extending the Cross County line.  

My two cents, drop the N-S as a semi quasi light rail line altogether and use same route as a streetcar/BRT hybrid where as you can do the streetcar in the city and overlay with county BRT/bus service.   Not uncommon practice to see buses run on existing Muni lines in San Fran.  Look at future N-S light rail utilizing existing freight railroad RoW for south city/county and the I-70 corridor for north city/county.   

As you correctly point out, metrolink connects ". . .employment centers to major event centers to major institutions with the airport(s)." Notice what's missing from that list? Population centers. When it was constructed, the only residential neighborhood served by the blue line in the city were Deballiver Place and Skinker-Deballiver (maybe the CWE, although I would argue that the Metrolink misses most of the CWE's population). The City's residential core is south city, and Metrolink doesn't even touch it. This is a profound flaw in the system. 

And although Metrolink appears to run through our "core," it actually misses many small portions of the core where we have a critical mass for ridership. The issue with the Grand and CWE stops have already been mentioned. The Union Station and Civic Center stops also suffer from being down in the bowls of a switchyard instead of the vibrant parts of the DTW neighborhood. The Clayton Stops are down on FPPW, when Clayton's critical mass is along Forsyth. I'm excited for the TOD nearly 30 years in the making at some of these stops, but I can't help but feel like this all could have happened sooner and it still being held back by far less than ideal line. 

BellaVilla wrote: ↑

May 12, 2021

Can you imagine the world of difference it would have made to even have just by passed the TRRA line between Union Station and the CWE in favor running its underground west of Union Station until emerging at FPPW and running down the median before meeting back up with the TRRA ROW in Forst Park?

Fun to imagine. But the cost of that alignment would have prevented the system from ever getting built. The amount of new tunneling required for the initial alignment was.... zero. Unless you include about 600 feet on the north end of UMSL's campus. Although 8th & Pine and Convention Center stations may have been built with cut-n-cover. 

^ Agree but that is why I stated that the failure is not doing a better job of tying in existing and building upon north south transit corridors and slow pace of TOD.   The hard reality is that the region couldn't afford to do both because the cost would have been exponentially higher to build a new system from scratch whether it be land acquisition, to utility relocations, to tunneling and so.   Otherwise it would have been a much slower streetcar arrangement.   St Louis simply doesn't have the population density or financial muscle of NY, Chicago or San Fran.   Another way to look at it is Cross County line cost up to $600 million when all said and done because of how it was routed under FPP and that was even a relative short stretch of a relative short expansion.  

But St. Louis does have space around the current metrolink stations to build more housing and now you start seeing it with Expo development and propose phase II Armory & Foundry residential proposals., so on.  

npav wrote: ↑

May 12, 2021

BellaVilla wrote: ↑

May 12, 2021

npav wrote: ↑

May 12, 2021

Something I've been thinking about lately in regards to the Metrolink is how it doesn't take you to some of our cities biggest attractions or most popular districts.

The Zoo, Art Museum, Soulard, the Botanical Gardens, Tower Grove Park, The Hill, these are all dense areas and roughly in an W/E pattern that could run a line that connects to the rest of the system at the Civic Center or at the Forest Park station as well.

Here, here! Its because we took the low hanging fruit when the TRRA gave up that ROW. Instead of making the best investment, we chose the cheap investment. The TRRA line is solid for the downtown stops but the Grand and CWE stops are terrible imo. FFS, the Grand Center stop is a dangerous (I'm talking cars, not people) 15 minute walk from the Fox Theater, Sheldon, Jazz at the Bistro, etc. So, how can you expect anyone to take the metro to Grand Center?

This has always been another complaint of mine, most the stops don't actually put you where you want to be, but a solid 10 minute walk from the actual activity.  If the CWE stop actually put you on the commercial strip of Eulicid, or the Grand stop was Grand and Forest Park instead of below a bridge, there would be much more foot traffic around these stops and likely increase the safety aspects of the Metrolink in the process.

Other examples:

- Richmond Heights doesn't take you to the galleria, but puts you on the other side of a highway and major road.
- Maplewood-Manchester doesn't put you by all the restaurants, but in a bunch of people's backyards and by a park and ride.

Maybe what we need isn't to move Metrolink, but to make sure folks know that Metrolink is only one small part of a larger system. Sure, it's a long walk to the Fox from the Grand station. But why on earth would you walk? The Grand stop is also a stop on the No. 70 line which goes right past the front door of the Fox and Powell Hall. (And a whole block from the Sheldon and Jazz at the Bistro.) And it has seven minute headways. It's a good bus. We need to advertise that fact. The 11 will take you from Metrolink to Cherokee. The 90 will get you to the zoo and the art museum. The 30 or the 73 will get you to Soulard. And your Metrolink pass is good on all of those. Each and every one. We need to advertise that fact. Make the connections more obvious. The system is honestly not too bad at all. Some busses could use better frequencies, but  . . . that's a known issue which we've discussed elsewhere and which is perhaps even being addressed.

I've ridden from Convention Center to College (SWIC), one stop before Scott, plenty of times.

It's definitely pretty empty east of the main Belleville stop, even before COVID. The train takes about the same time as driving (30 minutes).

It feels a lot safer over there, as if police are held to accountability to patrol trains.

But I agree that I'm not sure many people will be riding to MidAmerica.

I’ve wondered if we could schedule an express train from the city (maybe start/stopping at Grand) to BLV. Assuming it continues to grow.

I think the express would end up catching up with standard service and not sure if eliminating stops would really save that much time.


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You'd need to have a 3rd track to get that to work.  Not worth the cost unless there's an insanely high spike in demand.

A couple observations: 

• Without a park-n-ride lot (which MidAmerica obviously wouldn't want competing with their pay lot) this station will basically, exclusively serve travelers and airport workers. Any commuters coming from Lebanon, Mascoutah, New Baden or other points east, will still likely still use Shiloh-Scott (unless they get picked up and dropped off). 
• Single-tracking the last 2.5 miles kind of precludes (or at least makes more expensive and complicated) further extension beyond MidAmerica. Which, perhaps is fine considering there isn't a whole lot else out there. 

Surely there's something with higher ROI than this?

This could be great for attracting large shipping or logistics tenants to the airport. Access to labor, via transit, is a growing request!


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St. Louis has it good. For a City of our size, to have a major airport connected via rail transit is a benefit, and that's before we even get a minor airport connected. That's something Indy, Detroit, KC, Nashville, Memphis and most other cities don't have.

chriss752 wrote:St. Louis has it good. For a City of our size, to have a major airport connected via rail transit is a benefit, and that's before we even get a minor airport connected. That's something Indy, Detroit, KC, Nashville, Memphis and most other cities don't have.

We’re also quite a bit larger than Indy, KC, Nashville, and Memphis. Our airport could be a lot better considering the economy and population it supports but I understand the TWA issues


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