urbanSTL

ldai_phs wrote: ↑

Jan 13, 2021

The question is if St. Louis can qualify after previous hiccups with grants for rail and the relative low density along the proposed corridor.

Even if a lot of federal money is made available, there are a lot of cities with denser railless corridors.

the north half, in addition to promoting investment, is perfectly aligned and would serve those least likely to own cars. the south half of the corridor is plenty dense, but the Jefferson alignment is a waste, IMO, as a significant chunk of the rider shed overlaps with the river. it's really really unfortunate that it can't run on Gravois.

I like that you have a Jefferson station.

I think St. Louis should absolutely have one. 

Having it run along Gravois and then Grand would be incredible. 

I much prefer that alignment.  I've always champed Gravois for this.  And in an ideal world, a leg that goes down Vandeventer or Chippewa, though I doubt there's space along Chippewa as you get into SoHa/NoHa.

I know Gravois is MoDot maintained.  I don't get why that's such a hindrance though.  Maybe that question has been answered somewhere in this thread, though.

sc4mayor wrote: ↑

Jan 13, 2021

^ This.  Just gonna leave my personal preference for a south-side routing here...

This is great. I feel like the region should move forward with the proposed north alignment and go back to the drawing board with the south alignment before wasting over a billion dollars on an inadequate system. there won't be an opportunity to fix it for a long long time.

Why the US Sucks at Building Public Transit
https://www.vice.com/en/article/884kvk/ ... ic-transit

Stltoday - Messenger: As recovery from pandemic begins, cash infusion could finally fund transit expansion in St. Louis

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/col ... cbf21.html

^ Would a fair statement being that Page is looking as this as being Daniel Boone line first and therefore a construction boom for county & to smooth things over with city he would give carrot for better bus service, bus upgrades and or maybe a BRT for say Grand

Irony here is that NS is very low ridership too.....

dbInSouthCity wrote:Irony here is that NS is very low ridership too.....

I continue to think that NS should only be done as streetcar or BRT. Does not seem like the numbers are there for a bigger investment.

sc4mayor wrote: ↑

Mar 22, 2021

^ Building better transit in the N/S corridor at least has the ability to create a much higher population density and more productive development patterns than additional freight rail/highway rights of way in the permanently low density suburbs.

I'm also not quite buying that the ridership wouldn't be there in the city for a few high quality BRT lines...

No consulting team member that worked on the 2008 or the 2018 re do plan thinks it should be built, it makes no sense for the price. 

sc4mayor wrote: ↑

Mar 22, 2021

^ I don’t know what Page is thinking but if the region wastes money on a low density/low ridership Westport expansion before N/S I’m leaving town for good.

I'd love to see the County invest in a Daniel Boone/Westport line. That and/or a blue line extension to Affton (or points further south) or red line spur to Ferguson. Or preferably multiple of those at once to appease different constituents. 

It'd be great to see the County finally put Prop A funds into fixed rail transit. 

I think the Westport line is a dud for now. If anything, extend it up to Olive since both Delmar and Olive have a quite a bit in the pipeline that could make extension there worthwhile. After that, wait another few years to see what the rest of the route up to Westport looks like. I doubt much will change since it's mostly industrial. Or maybe after Olive, consider changing course and continue further North to serve Overland and maybe connect to the Red Line near the airport so people who board at Shrewsbury can take a train straight up to the airport rather than transferring at Forest Park-Debaliviere. Stops would be at Midland and Natural Bridge.

The Blue Line, in my opinion, should be extended to near Morgan Ford. That would give the Blue Line 3 more stops (Chippewa, Gravois, and Morgan Ford). Or, make the terminus at Gravois and Hampton. No matter what though, I don't think extending it to Bayless would be of any benefit right now but in the future, maybe.

pattimagee wrote:The note about the ridership not being there for the North line... does that mean we're thinking that wouldn't be in the pitch they make to the FED? or that they wouldn't build the North line until it became viable?

FED scoring includes ridership projections among other things. My understanding is that N/S is not projected to score well overall.

ldai_phs wrote:

pattimagee wrote:The note about the ridership not being there for the North line... does that mean we're thinking that wouldn't be in the pitch they make to the FED? or that they wouldn't build the North line until it became viable?

FED scoring includes ridership projections among other things. My understanding is that N/S is not projected to score well overall.

This administration does seem to be, at least vocally, emphasizing restorative justice, though. So maybe that will help N/S?


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As time goes on, and it's been said on here, N/S is not a justifiable investment at this point. 

1. Take the money that would've gone towards that and build a comprehensive BRT system across the City, and even the inner ring of the County. 
2. Improve the normal bus network (more frequency for the busiest routes and routes that show promise for growth).
3. Improve the present MetroLink system (such as continue modernizing trains or buying new pones to replace the oldest ones, get a new pre-recorded voice for station announcements and in-train announcements).
4. Then, start a Bi-State/Metro backed bike share program, like Divvy in Chicago (operated by Lyft for the Chicago Department of Transportation) or RideKC Bike in Kansas City (offering both E-Bikes and traditional bikes).

I think those would go further than a Billion Dollar N/S MetroLink line that will be low ridership. Sure, it would be cool to have, but not for this point in time.

SeattleNative wrote:

ldai_phs wrote:

pattimagee wrote:The note about the ridership not being there for the North line... does that mean we're thinking that wouldn't be in the pitch they make to the FED? or that they wouldn't build the North line until it became viable?

FED scoring includes ridership projections among other things. My understanding is that N/S is not projected to score well overall.

This administration does seem to be, at least vocally, emphasizing restorative justice, though. So maybe that will help N/S?


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Without an earmark, N/S will have to compete in a competitive grant program despite how friendly the administration may be. I don’t think North STL is super competitive when it comes to ridership vs disadvantaged areas in other cities.


The first example off the top of my head is KC. Their east side streetcar projects were estimated to carry 7,000 daily riders for about $400 million in 2019. That’s in the ballpark of the N/S MetroLink ridership for less than half the price. I am certain you can find more examples in other cities across the US.

N/S could be good enough for a federal grant for BRT but I really don’t see it scoring well for full LRT. It doesn’t really need LRT anyways and building rail imho would not be as useful to residents as a building a few BRT lines.