Stltoday - Pandemic has been the latest — and most daunting — setback for the Loop Trolley
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... a87b3.html
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... a87b3.html
There's something like a thousand apartment units currently in development right on the trolley line. Sure would be nice to see the developers get together and contribute towards getting the trolley running again.
Won’t their property taxes do just that?framer wrote:There's something like a thousand apartment units currently in development right on the trolley line. Sure would be nice to see the developers get together and contribute towards getting the trolley running again.
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Worth noting the trolley website is updated and they’ve taken the thing out once or twice for testing. Pretty confident they’re just biding their time until Expo and Hudson are done before it reopens. Wonder if grocery store sales tax could make free rides feasible (don’t think it’ll get much ridership unless it’s free).
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I really don’t understand that one. They really needed to incorporate a property tax to capture the increase in property values from their improvement.quincunx wrote:The TDD is funded with a sales tax
^ Yes.
The Loop Trolley should have never been built...but they should have at least levied a property tax instead of just sales taxes. Especially after the pandemic (hindsight, I know...but still).
The Loop Trolley should have never been built...but they should have at least levied a property tax instead of just sales taxes. Especially after the pandemic (hindsight, I know...but still).
KC Streetcar TDD is a property tax, sales tax, and surface lot special assessment .quincunx wrote:Can a TDD have a property tax?
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^A surface lot special assessment sounds particularly attractive.
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Can we do that on Olive/Lindell (or anything within two blocks N/S) to fund a BRT line there and get speculators to move on their land?symphonicpoet wrote:^A surface lot special assessment sounds particularly attractive.
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A property tax is paid by the same people who pushed the Trolley (Loop landowners). A sales tax is paid by other people. Ergo they went with a sales tax.ldai_phs wrote: ↑Jan 26, 2021I really don’t understand that one. They really needed to incorporate a property tax to capture the increase in property values from their improvement.quincunx wrote:The TDD is funded with a sales tax
Hopefully a few hundred units are added to that total if/when a Wash U Loop Lofts Phase II gets under way.framer wrote: ↑Jan 26, 2021There's something like a thousand apartment units currently in development right on the trolley line. Sure would be nice to see the developers get together and contribute towards getting the trolley running again.
There is something about TDD’s not being allowed for buses in the same way. I don’t quite remember what it was (maybe a ban on bus operations?)SeattleNative wrote:Can we do that on Olive/Lindell (or anything within two blocks N/S) to fund a BRT line there and get speculators to move on their land?symphonicpoet wrote:^A surface lot special assessment sounds particularly attractive.
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Renters and customers a meant to pay property taxes as well. When they disappear is when the owner pays them.MarkHaversham wrote: ↑Jan 27, 2021A property tax is paid by the same people who pushed the Trolley (Loop landowners). A sales tax is paid by other people. Ergo they went with a sales tax.ldai_phs wrote: ↑Jan 26, 2021I really don’t understand that one. They really needed to incorporate a property tax to capture the increase in property values from their improvement.quincunx wrote:The TDD is funded with a sales tax
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^Everyone tries to pass the tax along to the next sap down the line. The customer always pays it in the end. But sales tax you can exclude from the sticker price. And when said sap says "Hey, that was supposed to be X dollars!" the merchant can blame the government. Never you mind the merchant or landowner voted for that tax and the government has nothing to do with it. A property tax would be fundamentally more honest and we can't have that.
It’s already nothing short of spectacular if you think about it. There have already been 4 significant mixed use buildings built along the route, 3 more under construction and another one just proposed. The loop trolley has clearly spurred development along its route.wabash wrote: ↑Jan 27, 2021Hopefully a few hundred units are added to that total if/when a Wash U Loop Lofts Phase II gets under way.framer wrote: ↑Jan 26, 2021There's something like a thousand apartment units currently in development right on the trolley line. Sure would be nice to see the developers get together and contribute towards getting the trolley running again.
I look forward to the virtuous cycle of businesses and residents paying into the Trolley Taxing district.
^ Imran, I'm trying to understand your comment on how the trolley that briefly ran, when it did ran offered very little transit benefit, and finally shutdown because it no ridership or consistent dollars spurred these developments?
What would I give credit for spurring development? For starters the area being essentially bookended by two growing employment centers in Clayton CBD & Barnes/Wash U/CORTEX helps; second, is anchored to south & tied by a world class University in Wash U that has only gotten stronger and whose endowment is only getting bigger; third, already has some density and therefore avenue for large apartment buildings to be built without a significant NIMBY opposition'; fourth already had an established walkable entertainment district in the Loop and finally has one of the best urban parks in the country at its foot steps. I would say everything would be happening without the trolley.
Unfortunately, I think the Loop Trolley might underscore the missed opportunity of not pursuing a modern low floor street car on Delmar into CWE and or more concerted effort to push St. Louis streetcar down the Olive/Lindell Corridor in the same way that Kansas City put together a methodical, well thought out transit/development corridor plan with a streetcar that is fare less. In all due respect I would give KC folks and their streetcar credit for spurring development but not the Loop Trolley
In the meantime, extend loop trolley tracks a mile or two farther into the Forest Park/to the St. Louis Zoo, run it Thur-Sun and make it fareless by incorporating it into the museum district to cover the remaining operating gap.
What would I give credit for spurring development? For starters the area being essentially bookended by two growing employment centers in Clayton CBD & Barnes/Wash U/CORTEX helps; second, is anchored to south & tied by a world class University in Wash U that has only gotten stronger and whose endowment is only getting bigger; third, already has some density and therefore avenue for large apartment buildings to be built without a significant NIMBY opposition'; fourth already had an established walkable entertainment district in the Loop and finally has one of the best urban parks in the country at its foot steps. I would say everything would be happening without the trolley.
Unfortunately, I think the Loop Trolley might underscore the missed opportunity of not pursuing a modern low floor street car on Delmar into CWE and or more concerted effort to push St. Louis streetcar down the Olive/Lindell Corridor in the same way that Kansas City put together a methodical, well thought out transit/development corridor plan with a streetcar that is fare less. In all due respect I would give KC folks and their streetcar credit for spurring development but not the Loop Trolley
In the meantime, extend loop trolley tracks a mile or two farther into the Forest Park/to the St. Louis Zoo, run it Thur-Sun and make it fareless by incorporating it into the museum district to cover the remaining operating gap.
^ It’s amazing how many people in STL forget that the Loop has two (nearly three) light rail stations within walking distance of it already.
^ Yes, agree but most of these units are literally being built within walking distances to the metrolink stations that you noted about with the Loop. Why would someone consider waiting 30 minutes for Loop Trolley as a transit option when metrolink station is a short 5 minute walk away?
I did completely missed the fact that transit is playing a big part. But the part is being played by Metrolink which was truly built as a transit system.
I did completely missed the fact that transit is playing a big part. But the part is being played by Metrolink which was truly built as a transit system.
Look I get the disappointment with the Trolley as a transportation project. I always thought of it as Joe E utilizing whatever funding was available to tie together a unique area.
The difference between me and naysayers is that I believe the Trolley is not dead but in hibernation till the economic winter is over. It adds excitement and romance to the loop. And it’s very St Louis.
As for the comments about proximity to metrolink stations, do I really need to remind you all that the loop and SD stations,( and wash U and forest park for that matter) had existed for decades prior ( and more) but we never saw the level of investment we have seen since the Trolley. It’s a much less harsh form of transport than metrolink. People and businesses want to locate along its tracks unlike metrolink.
And there are many metrolink stations stations in the system that seem to have spurred no investment around them.
I am very glad that a visionary did the tough work to bring a unique project to the City even if some never concede its impact on local development.
The difference between me and naysayers is that I believe the Trolley is not dead but in hibernation till the economic winter is over. It adds excitement and romance to the loop. And it’s very St Louis.
As for the comments about proximity to metrolink stations, do I really need to remind you all that the loop and SD stations,( and wash U and forest park for that matter) had existed for decades prior ( and more) but we never saw the level of investment we have seen since the Trolley. It’s a much less harsh form of transport than metrolink. People and businesses want to locate along its tracks unlike metrolink.
And there are many metrolink stations stations in the system that seem to have spurred no investment around them.
I am very glad that a visionary did the tough work to bring a unique project to the City even if some never concede its impact on local development.
^ You don’t need to remind me of anything. I brought up the proximity of other Metro stations because of this persistent belief that STL should waste additional transit funds building these streetcars in an area with good access to both light rail and bus service when there are plenty of other areas of the city lacking good transit service.
It’s not a question of economic development for me but providing service for people that need it.
I also think the idea that MetroLink isn’t helping spur some of this development (whether on the Loop or elsewhere) is a little disingenuous. The main line has been open since ‘93 the Blue line since ‘06...I just think STL has moved on from attributing any and every project to system. I don’t think it’s a secret developers want to build in neighborhoods with light rail access...whether or not MetroLink is their primary sales pitch.
Having said all that, I do agree with you...I have no doubt some like the nostalgia of the little trolley and want to be near it. And even though I don’t think it should have been built, it’s here and I’d like to see it come back and be a successful tourist attraction.
It’s not a question of economic development for me but providing service for people that need it.
I also think the idea that MetroLink isn’t helping spur some of this development (whether on the Loop or elsewhere) is a little disingenuous. The main line has been open since ‘93 the Blue line since ‘06...I just think STL has moved on from attributing any and every project to system. I don’t think it’s a secret developers want to build in neighborhoods with light rail access...whether or not MetroLink is their primary sales pitch.
Having said all that, I do agree with you...I have no doubt some like the nostalgia of the little trolley and want to be near it. And even though I don’t think it should have been built, it’s here and I’d like to see it come back and be a successful tourist attraction.
I can see apartment developers/owners contributing to the Trolley on a per-unit basis (say five dollars per unit per month, for example). In exchange, they'd get free all-access passes to give to their tenants. I would think tenants in Expo and Hudson, (not to mention all the other units in De Baliviere Place), would love to ride the trolley to the Loop for shopping, dining, etc. This would provide a modest boost in funding for the trolley, as well as increased ridership (which would then attract increased interest in in-car advertising).
Look trolley should be free to ride and paid for with a sales and property tax.framer wrote:I can see apartment developers/owners contributing to the Trolley on a per-unit basis (say five dollars per unit per month, for example). In exchange, they'd get free all-access passes to give to their tenants. I would think tenants in Expo and Hudson, (not to mention all the other units in De Baliviere Place), would love to ride the trolley to the Loop for shopping, dining, etc. This would provide a modest boost in funding for the trolley, as well as increased ridership (which would then attract increased interest in in-car advertising).
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The Loop Trolley absolutely needs to be free.
I do think the trolley should be extended further into Forest Park with stops at the art museum and zoo. But I would also love to see if there would be a way for us to extend it into the CWE.
I do think the trolley should be extended further into Forest Park with stops at the art museum and zoo. But I would also love to see if there would be a way for us to extend it into the CWE.