Delmar Loop Trolley

dredger · PostJan 28, 2021#19512021-01-28T19:52+00:00

ldai_phs wrote: ↑
Jan 28, 2021
framer wrote:I can see apartment developers/owners contributing to the Trolley on a per-unit basis (say five dollars per unit per month, for example). In exchange, they'd get free all-access passes to give to their tenants. I would think tenants in Expo and Hudson, (not to mention all the other units in De Baliviere Place), would love to ride the trolley to the Loop for shopping, dining, etc. This would provide a modest boost in funding for the trolley, as well as increased ridership (which would then attract increased interest in in-car advertising).
Look trolley should be free to ride and paid for with a sales and property tax.

Exactly, I think trolley would be better served if free, fareless and a big mistake in hindsight of not pursuing in the first place.

Imran, I totally agree that Loop Trolley is not dead nor should it be. I just don't see it as nearly as a good of a development tool as hoped nor as transit. However, I do see it as what Tampa has in Ybor City trolley that was built years before the Loop Trolley. The Loop Trolley is in an opportunity to tie in an established entertainment district, maybe convince another hotel/boutique type hotel development, with one of the big regional draws in Forest Park while bringing back some history to boot. So that is why I advocate for doubling down with an expansion of rails into Forest Park itself. But it truly needs a non profit foundation Forest Park Forever to be involved and another tax source to make it reliable to operator. To me that is Museum District..

imran · PostJan 28, 2021#19522021-01-28T19:54+00:00

sc4mayor wrote: ↑
Jan 28, 2021
^ You don’t need to remind me of anything. I brought up the proximity of other Metro stations because of this persistent belief that STL should waste additional transit funds building these streetcars in an area with good access to both light rail and bus service when there are plenty of other areas of the city lacking good transit service.

It’s not a question of economic development for me but providing service for people that need it.

I also think the idea that MetroLink isn’t helping spur some of this development (whether on the Loop or elsewhere) is a little disingenuous. The main line has been open since ‘93 the Blue line since ‘06...I just think STL has moved on from attributing any and every project to system. I don’t think it’s a secret developers want to build in neighborhoods with light rail access...whether or not MetroLink is their primary sales pitch.

Having said all that, I do agree with you...I have no doubt some like the nostalgia of the little trolley and want to be near it. And even though I don’t think it should have been built, it’s here and I’d like to see it come back and be a successful tourist attraction.

I appreciate your comment. To clarify I don’t think metrolink has not been good for Development. Just a different scale of transport and Im not thrilled about institutions monopolizing the land around stations, excluding granular development The street car to me is a more equitable (?democratic) tool that can go into an existing neighborhood and enhance all properties-big and small- along its route.

wabash · PostJan 28, 2021#19532021-01-28T19:54+00:00

Love it or hate it, there is no thread on this board that stirs passions and opinions quite like the one covering a 2.2 mile heritage streetcar.

Especially now that the 2020 Federal Election thread has moved on and been renamed.

ldai_phs · PostJan 28, 2021#19542021-01-28T20:04+00:00

A large, reputable player will have to back the trolley for it to ever reopen or be improved.

chriss752 · PostJan 28, 2021#19552021-01-28T20:06+00:00

ldai_phs wrote:A large, reputable player will have to back the trolley for it to ever reopen or be improved.

Bi-State should look at it again and consider it now that numerous projects are underway or planned along the corridor. Could be of benefit to them.

RockChalkSTL · PostJan 28, 2021#19562021-01-28T20:14+00:00

It can't be stated enough that if the trolley does come back, it needs to be free - or, at the very least, attached to the rest of Metrolink's fare system.

urban_dilettante · PostJan 28, 2021#19572021-01-28T21:14+00:00

wabash wrote: ↑
Jan 28, 2021
Love it or hate it, there is no thread on this board that stirs passions and opinions quite like the one covering a 2.2 mile heritage streetcar.

Especially now that the 2020 Federal Election thread has moved on and been renamed.

cue hebeters.

framer · PostJan 28, 2021#19582021-01-28T22:51+00:00

Bumping this well-balanced overview of the trolley project for anyone who may have missed it:

bwcrow1s · PostJan 29, 2021#19592021-01-29T12:55+00:00

KansasCitian wrote: ↑
Jan 28, 2021
The Loop Trolley absolutely needs to be free.

I do think the trolley should be extended further into Forest Park with stops at the art museum and zoo. But I would also love to see if there would be a way for us to extend it into the CWE.

I echo. I think it would drive more visitors between the attractions, especially if they don't need to drive, park, drive, park at each and every one. It would also lower emissions if utilized, which I would think would make an even better high quality urban park. I think they'd need a couple more cars though if they're planning on servicing Forest Park as well as the Loop, though.

RockChalkSTL · PostJan 29, 2021#19602021-01-29T15:21+00:00

I wish some of St. Louis' civic institutions such as the Zoo and Science Center would start charging non-residents a nominal fee to enter. If the city or Forest Park itself could get a portion of that money, you could probably have some absolutely incredible services throughout the park.

I wish the Trolley could go through Forest Park, hitting the Missouri History Museum, Art Museum, and Zoo. But then I kind of also wish it could go down Government Drive, past the World's Fair Pavilion and Pagoda Lake to the Muny, before winding over to Pine, where it would enter the Central West End.

If something like this were to happen, you'd have a solid number of St. Louis' most important attractions on a trolley line that is bookended by two thriving residential and entertainment corridors.

stlgasm · PostJan 29, 2021#19612021-01-29T15:33+00:00

I agree that it’s a great idea to extend the trolley into the park. Then it would have touristy charm AND utility. However, I can’t in a million years ever imagine stakeholders/residents/powers-that-be allowing it for several reasons: 1) Noise, 2) Visual pollution (“the wires are obstructing my view of the trees!”), and 3) Perceived danger to pedestrians and cyclists. Just think of the backlash. I say screw the naysayers- this is a no-brainer that would undoubtedly be popular if planned and executed properly.

wabash · PostJan 29, 2021#19622021-01-29T15:40+00:00

KansasCitian wrote: ↑
Jan 29, 2021
I wish some of St. Louis' civic institutions such as the Zoo and Science Center would start charging non-residents a nominal fee to enter.

They manage to do that for a significant portion of non-residents by charging for parking.

RockChalkSTL · PostJan 29, 2021#19632021-01-29T16:20+00:00

They also manage to do that to a significant portion of residents.

I just wish that we could make more money off of non-residents.

Imagine if visitors could visit each of the Zoo, Art Museum, Science Center, Missouri Botanical Garden attractions, and Missouri History Museum with a $40 pass.

And imagine if some of our other cultural institutions like City Museum or Magic House would join.

framer · PostJan 29, 2021#19642021-01-29T17:41+00:00

Any of you train buffs know if the trolley cars are even capable of climbing the hill to the Art Museum?

GoHarvOrGoHome · PostJan 29, 2021#19652021-01-29T23:17+00:00

I agree that an extension into the park would be fantastic but unlikely. One advantage a Forest Park trolley route has is the fact that it wouldn't necessarily need to be street running. It could run adjacent or even completely independently to the roadway.

I'm also intrigued by the possibility of a gondola system that was floated half a decade ago to connect the Zoo extension to the Zoo across the highway. It wouldn't be terribly hard to continue the gondola over the top of the Zoo to the Art Museum and down to the History Museum. Would easily connect both of those amenities to Metro and provide sweeping views to riders. Could also be extended west to the Muny, Emerson Fields, Steinberg, and CWE as well.

Another intriguing idea could be a pilot system for TransitX

symphonicpoet · PostJan 30, 2021#19662021-01-30T08:44+00:00

framer wrote: ↑
Jan 29, 2021
Any of you train buffs know if the trolley cars are even capable of climbing the hill to the Art Museum?

Wait, what? How many folks on here have written feature articles in model railroading mags? I certainly haven't. But I've wondered about that myself, so I did some quick google earth grade math. Art Hill appears to be about sixty feet from base to summit. And the path up the north side, which appears to be to the steeper of the two, is about fifteen hundred feet long. Which works out to a four percent grade. That's some serious mountain railroading, but probably not impossible. Probably. I don't think there'd be any need for cogs or cables quite yet. (But good luck stopping on the way down.)

ldai_phs · PostJan 30, 2021#19672021-01-30T17:52+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote:
framer wrote: ↑
Jan 29, 2021
Any of you train buffs know if the trolley cars are even capable of climbing the hill to the Art Museum?
Wait, what? How many folks on here have written feature articles in model railroading mags? I certainly haven't. But I've wondered about that myself, so I did some quick google earth grade math. Art Hill appears to be about sixty feet from base to summit. And the path up the north side, which appears to be to the steeper of the two, is about fifteen hundred feet long. Which works out to a four percent grade. That's some serious mountain railroading, but probably not impossible. Probably. I don't think there'd be any need for cogs or cables quite yet. (But good luck stopping on the way down.)

The CAF Urbos 3’s that KC Streetcar uses can do 9%

RockChalkSTL · PostJan 30, 2021#19682021-01-30T17:59+00:00

I don't think you would need to worry about the trolley going down that hill if I got my way. You'd have the trolley go up the hill and then take a left on government drive, past the World's Fair Pavilion and Muny before either heading back to DB or over to the Central West End.

framer · PostJan 30, 2021#19692021-01-30T18:32+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Jan 30, 2021
framer wrote: ↑
Jan 29, 2021
Any of you train buffs know if the trolley cars are even capable of climbing the hill to the Art Museum?
Wait, what? How many folks on here have written feature articles in model railroading mags?

Yeah, busted. But I'm all about the models; I don't really know much about real-life trains. I'm amazed at the collective railroad knowledge on this site.

Thatguy644 · PostJan 30, 2021#19702021-01-30T18:43+00:00

The track and wires are al ready in place so It would be foolish to let it go to waste.
1. Get rid of sales tax for it and find another funding source.
2. Reduce the number of stops buy 2 or 3.
3 expanded to the zoo and art museum. Later to dog town

ldai_phs · PostJan 30, 2021#19712021-01-30T18:44+00:00

Thatguy644 wrote:The track and wires are al ready in place so It would be foolish to let it go to waste.
1. Get rid of sales tax for it and find another funding source.
2. Reduce the number of stops buy 2 or 3.
3 expanded to the zoo and art museum. Later to dog town

You need to keep the sales tax and add a property tax. It’s important to capture the value added by this project.

sc4mayor · PostJan 30, 2021#19722021-01-30T18:55+00:00

^ A property tax will never happen. I’m almost sure that would require another vote and the idea that enough people would vote to levy yet another tax on this project is laughable.

There is little to no public support for throwing additional public funds at this thing.

It’s going to have to be private.

quincunx · PostJan 30, 2021#19732021-01-30T19:22+00:00

There's the West Loop SBD, The East Loop CID, which assesses on square footage of land and improvements, at least three TIFs, Metro garage, Crossroads, et al are tax exempt, and Hudson has a tax abatement.

imran · PostJan 30, 2021#19742021-01-30T19:54+00:00

Thatguy644 wrote: ↑
Jan 30, 2021
The track and wires are al ready in place so It would be foolish to let it go to waste.
1. Get rid of sales tax for it and find another funding source.
2. Reduce the number of stops buy 2 or 3.
3 expanded to the zoo and art museum. Later to dog town

The issue with the last roll out (for me) was no set time or schedule and no communication as to ETA. So you could stand at a station and have no idea whether the trolley would be by in 5 minutes or 50 minutes. Some sort of real time reporting system would have significantly helped riders.
As for extending into forest park, they’ve already done the tough part of crossing Lindell (despite NIMBY lawsuits)
Would love an extension to grand basin and the visitor center (which used to be a transit stop) if not the art museum.

quincunx · PostJan 30, 2021#19752021-01-30T21:31+00:00

I'd do Visitor's Center, Muny, Boat House/World's Fair Pavillion, and the Zoo. Avoid the hill

Delmar Loop Trolley

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