urbanSTL

Random Grand Center thought....

Is there any chance that sculpture garden can get replaced with something that fits the nature of that dense corridor a little better? 

I've got nothing against sculpture gardens, and I'd even argue that Grand Center is a fantastic place for one... but that's not the spot. 

^I think SLU is open to developing that corner. In fact, every few years they send out an RFP. This thread goes back to 2005:

proposals-for-northeast-corner-of-grand ... -t558.html

Here's a proposal from 2008:

framer wrote: ↑

Dec 29, 2020

^I think SLU is open to developing that corner. In fact, every few years they send out an RFP. This thread goes back to 2005:

proposals-for-northeast-corner-of-grand ... -t558.html

Here's a proposal from 2008:

Wow I like this a lot.

It's a pretty large parcel, but I think it'd be really nice to see 8+ stories of non-student residential.

I also want to see the lot across the street developed. 

Honestly, I have a lot of Grand Center lots on my wish list. If the Central West End/Midtown/Cortex development spree ever hits Grand Center the same way, this neighborhood could have a dramatically different feel.  

Edit: While we're at it, would SLU ever develop their fountain lot? It honestly feels like nothing more than a holdover lot anyway. 

KansasCitian wrote:It's a pretty large parcel, but I think it'd be really nice to see 8+ stories of non-student residential.

I also want to see the lot across the street developed. 

Honestly, I have a lot of Grand Center lots on my wish list. If the Central West End/Midtown/Cortex development spree ever hits Grand Center the same way, this neighborhood could have a dramatically different feel.  

Edit: While we're at it, would SLU ever develop their fountain lot? It honestly feels like nothing more than a holdover lot anyway. 

Per the SLU Campus master plan, that fountain will remain and a dorm building would be built around it. Now, this is older, but it does show the recently completed new dorm buildings on Laclede.

chriss752 wrote: ↑

Dec 29, 2020

Per the SLU Campus master plan, that fountain will remain and a dorm building would be built around it. Now, this is older, but it does show the recently completed new dorm buildings on Laclede.

Strange that they have Griesedieck Hall highlighted as "New Residential." I wonder if that's a mistake and they actually meant "Renovation" for it. It seems unlikely that they would replace it entirely.

I hope the new residential around the fountain (arg) across from St. Francis Xavier is at least as tall at the other two recent dorms along West Pine (7-9 stories).  

Way to pay attention wabash. Agree that I don't think they would replace what is a pretty iconic building unless there was a major fault that couldn't be mitigated. 

Didn't they just build something by the fountain? I just drove by there other other day but wasn't paying attention. 

Anyone here involved with SLU that can share any of their plans for the near future? I imagine the pandemic has hit schools pretty hard in terms of finances.

flipz wrote: ↑

Dec 30, 2020

Didn't they just build something by the fountain? I just drove by there other other day but wasn't paying attention. 

Anyone here involved with SLU that can share any of their plans for the near future? I imagine the pandemic has hit schools pretty hard in terms of finances.

They just completed a new Science and Engineering building (here's the thread for it), which is highlighted in yellow in that master plan. It's near the Lindell & Grand fountain, but not surrounding it. From that thread: 



To your second point, I can't say I'm in the know on SLU development plans, but the last two major dorm developments (Spring Hall and Grand Hall) were actually intended to help shore up SLU's finances as they charge higher room & board for residents in the new buildings and enable them to keep more residents on campus. 

Since dorms can be cash cows we may not see them affected as much by struggling university finances. Unfortunately the same can't be said for any planned academic buildings.

I am hoping that SLU will use their influence to replace some of the buildings lining Grand Ave. near their university. 

For instance, can we do something about that Circle K gas station across from the Chipotle and Starbucks? The Reinert Hall and Air Force ROTC area also seems greatly underutilized. 

They could also come up with something to wrap around that parking garage at their medical campus at Grand/Chouteau. Please, do anything to remove that green space and keep me from remembering that Pevely should still be there - and could still be there even with what has been built. 

^ SLU is campaigning to make the Captain D's a National Heritage site.

The Captain D's is perhaps the worst offender on that entire stretch of Grand.

KC, you seem to forget that we're still a slow-growth area. You have big dreams, but there's simply no market to build a fraction of all the things you propose.

urban_dilettante wrote: ↑

Dec 30, 2020

^ SLU is campaigning to make the Captain D's a National Heritage site.

I thought the campaign was to raise funds for the Captain D's Memorial Fountain and Fenced-In Dog/Sculpture Park. 

framer wrote: ↑

Dec 30, 2020

KC, you seem to forget that we're still a slow-growth area. You have big dreams, but there's simply no market to build a fraction of all the things you propose.

St. Louis doesn't always have be a slow-growth area. It is going to require innovation to break this market from the status quo, and to right the ship.  

Also, my proposals aren't for 2021. More like for 2041. None of this stuff is going to happen overnight. 

But I also think we can't pretend that my "big dreams" are anything but to simply undue several of the decisions that allowed this city to circle the drain for so long. A highway between downtown and the Arch, with east of Broadway largely a pedestrian nightmare? That was designed by St. Louis city planners a half-century ago, and those decisions continue to haunt this city to this very day. 

I'm pretty optimistic about St. Louis' ability to shake off 40 years of slow growth and to get back on track. I think a rebound is coming, but it is going to require this city wanting to create forward momentum for everybody that calls this place home.

KansasCitian wrote: ↑

Dec 30, 2020

The Captain D's is perhaps the worst offender on that entire stretch of Grand.

But it's the only development at that intersection!

urban_dilettante wrote:^ SLU is campaigning to make the Captain D's a National Heritage site.

I know a few developers who tried to buy Captain D’s and Rally’s. The owners were willing to sell, but for a steep price. Main reason given: these are among the busiest locations in the entire metro area. So ultimately, even though the 3 developers I know really wanted to buy those two properties, demo them and build something good there, the cost of acquiring the parcel made the projects not feasible. Really a shame too

^ the D's and Rally's don't need to go away. they could occupy space on the ground floors of whatever developments take their places. maybe the developers could offer the owners discounted leases in exchange for lower sale prices?

A successful Iron Hill across the street and a growing Steelcote complex in the rear would hopefully change the economics on the Rallys/Ds site.

Also I wouldn't mind the Metrolink station under the viaduct nearly as much if Grand was the urban corridor it should be. Instead pedestrians have to walk across countless curb cuts, across off and on ramps, across 64 on bridge with narrow sidewalks, and through that terrible Forest Park Parkway intersection. 

The pedestrian experience on Grand is just terrible between Chouteau and Laclede. Hopefully overtime we can brute force it with some solid urbanism along the corridor, but it needs to come with serious infrastructure improvements.  

SLU needs to be lobbying for high quality BRT on Grand. Maybe one day even a modern streetcar running between Page and Arsenal connecting to a larger E/W system down Wash Ave/Lindell

I feel like I'm catching on to St. Louis pretty quickly, but there is still so much more to learn.

Can Steelcote Square residents get to the Grand Ave. Metrolink station with any kind of ease whatsoever? Like, without having to go up to Grand and then down the steps/elevators?

If not, how easy would it be to create/retrofit a path to the station? I think that area is going to see a lot of development this decade. It makes too much sense to have an easy walk to a station. 

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

Dec 31, 2020

A successful Iron Hill across the street and a growing Steelcote complex in the rear would hopefully change the economics on the Rallys/Ds site.

Also I wouldn't mind the Metrolink station under the viaduct nearly as much if Grand was the urban corridor it should be. Instead pedestrians have to walk across countless curb cuts, across off and on ramps, across 64 on bridge with narrow sidewalks, and through that terrible Forest Park Parkway intersection. 

The pedestrian experience on Grand is just terrible between Chouteau and Laclede. Hopefully overtime we can brute force it with some solid urbanism along the corridor, but it needs to come with serious infrastructure improvements.  

SLU needs to be lobbying for high quality BRT on Grand. Maybe one day even a modern streetcar running between Page and Arsenal connecting to a larger E/W system down Wash Ave/Lindell

Sounds like a good summary or basis for next BUILD/TIGER grant app or maybe wishful thinking but part of an infrastructure stimulus bill - Grand Street improvements including an at grade FPP & N. Grand Intersection, pedestrian improvements, and enhanced bus service if City & SLU/Development District could get behind.   Think of recent grants around Jefferson Ave. 

KansasCitian wrote: ↑

Dec 31, 2020

I feel like I'm catching on to St. Louis pretty quickly, but there is still so much more to learn.

Can Steelcote Square residents get to the Grand Ave. Metrolink station with any kind of ease whatsoever? Like, without having to go up to Grand and then down the steps/elevators?

If not, how easy would it be to create/retrofit a path to the station? I think that area is going to see a lot of development this decade. It makes too much sense to have an easy walk to a station. 

There's really not any legitimate and official way to walk from Steelcote to the Grand station without going up on the bridge. Anyplace you tried to cross the tracks at grade you'd be trespassing and if the Metrolink guards didn't stop you the UP/BNSF/TRRA cops just might. (And the railroad cops are legit cops with guns and the whole nine yards rather than merely security officers with pepper spray.) It might technically be possible, but I wouldn't recommend it. Particularly since the railroad is really quite busy just there and Metrolink is surprisingly quiet. The best option will probably always be up and over. The city and railroads both have been working to eliminate grade crossings in Mill Creek Valley for a hundred years. It's just not possible to make them safe.

Trololzilla wrote: ↑

Jan 01, 2021

urban_dilettante wrote: ↑

Dec 31, 2020

^ the D's and Rally's don't need to go away. they could occupy space on the ground floors of whatever developments take their places. maybe the developers could offer the owners discounted leases in exchange for lower sale prices?

Unfortunately, I don't think Rally's/Checkers does anything other than standalone buildings, as their entire business model is based on drive-thru pickup (there's technically a walk-up window as well, but that's more of a courtesy than anything). 

Say what you will about Rally's business model. But Checkers has locations in Harlem, Tribeca, East Village, Lower East Side, Williamsburg, South Bronx, and knows how to sell burgers without a drive-thru.