urbanSTL

I would argue that cars could actually move quite a bit faster in the park. The problem on Delmar is that the trolley is driving through one of the highest traffic corridors in the city which leads it to often move slower than walking speed. Here stops would be further apart and driving on the far less busy roads of Forest Park. Large sections of dedicated ROW can also simply be built adjacent to the road because there aren't any buildings in the way!

We would definitely need to find a few more trolleys for the system though

^ "speeding trolleys"  versus speeding cars, or buses, or even bicycles for that matter - is this a safety issue?

I am curious if any publicized traffic studies for the Park are available.

Bi-State backed out. Although the trolley was troubled. I am very concerned with the regions lack of concern over future transit funding. Leadership is really lacking and the amount of money needed to support the project is really peanuts in the grand scheme of things. St. Louis shooting itself in the foot once again. 

https://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/bi ... s#stream/0

"Loop Trolley Company president John Meyer said he’s disappointed that Bi-State’s leadership chose not to support taking over the trolley. 

“It’s like a nuclear waste dump,” he said. “Nobody wants to get near it. But somebody’s got to, to make it successful. That’s what political leadership is supposed to be about. I’m sad that we’re lacking that in our region today.”

In the committee meeting Friday, Federal Transit Administration region administrator Mokhtee Ahmad told the committees that a failed transit project could indeed cause problems for St. Louis. Ahmad said that the federal agency would likely sue for about $25 million if no one got the trolley running again. He also implied that any litigation to recover federal money could hurt St. Louis’ applications for future federal grants.

“What do you think you would do [as the Federal Transit Administration], given the fact that you have this litigation going on, and an application comes in from St. Louis for a discretionary grant?” he asked. “I’ll leave the up to you to answer.”

I truly hope they don’t turn their backs on this.


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No, we won't be blackballed, but the hoops we'll have to jump through just got a lot smaller. 

sc4mayor wrote:Yeah this is really bad for the region as a whole.  You can 100% forget about ever getting federal money for meaningful mass transit in STL at this point.  N/S is dead (some might argue it always was a pipe dream, but the idea the feds will ever award STL a federal transit grant in the future is laughable now).  Any shot at a modern streetcar or BRT is dead.  And now EWG is likely to be sued by the feds to recover the $25 million in federal monies that went to this.  People didn’t want to spend $700,000 to keep it alive, where do these same idiots think the region is going to come up with $25 million or so?  Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Of course the FTA is going to advice against it, but many regions have struggled with FTA funding in the past and have gone on (in less than a few years) to be rewarded with hundreds of millions in grants.

The grants are already becoming more competitive due to the current administration and growing popularity. The chances STL was going to pull any N/S MetroLink, BRT, or streetcar FTA capital application together within the next 5 years has always been slim.

St. Louis, especially Bi-State, has a strong record of managing federal money VERY wisely. Any application with Bi-State as a sponsor, will do almost as well as before. They might need to insert a paragraph about lessons learned, but the good still far outweighs the bad.

Pay it back by selling the assets and bonding out the TDD tax?

I was thinking of the Trolley Barn. 

addxb2 wrote: ↑

Jan 24, 2020

sc4mayor wrote:Yeah this is really bad for the region as a whole.  You can 100% forget about ever getting federal money for meaningful mass transit in STL at this point.  N/S is dead (some might argue it always was a pipe dream, but the idea the feds will ever award STL a federal transit grant in the future is laughable now).  Any shot at a modern streetcar or BRT is dead.  And now EWG is likely to be sued by the feds to recover the $25 million in federal monies that went to this.  People didn’t want to spend $700,000 to keep it alive, where do these same idiots think the region is going to come up with $25 million or so?  Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Of course the FTA is going to advice against it, but many regions have struggled with FTA funding in the past and have gone on (in less than a few years) to be rewarded with hundreds of millions in grants.

The grants are already becoming more competitive due to the current administration and growing popularity. The chances STL was going to pull any N/S MetroLink, BRT, or streetcar FTA capital application together within the next 5 years has always been slim.

St. Louis, especially Bi-State, has a strong record of managing federal money VERY wisely. Any application with Bi-State as a sponsor, will do almost as well as before. They might need to insert a paragraph about lessons learned, but the good still far outweighs the bad.

Great point, from that perspective you could also see the argument in a different way.   Bi-state is protecting itself on future transit applications by not having the Loop Trolley on its resume and therefore better for the region as a whole even though hands down the ability, the finances and resources to manage the trolley.   The reality is that the Loop Trolley was never a serious transit proposal and the only reason why it got the $25 million in first place was political circumstances.  Might be painful to accept in near term but it is a legit argument that it is best in long term that Bi-state doesn't take it on.

Which gives one of the last options still possible in my mind outside of non profit group with big donation, could the city take over the Loop trolley and incorporate into its street department using existing sales tax for transit that is being generated but not spent?  Not sure of legal implications or restrictions on the city transit sales tax dollars.  Might be a moot point for all know but a question to ask.   City ownership would definitely shorten the ride if  U City doesn't allow it to run in its boundaries but it would preserve the cars, tracks, wires and trolley barn and keeps it moving near term for the city a way to look at a couple options, 

1) extending tracks via east down Delmar Ave as a way to reintroduce as a city low floor modern street car system focused on developing Delmar divide within the city.   Say phase 1 is to add a mile or two of tracks down Delmar Ave & phase II into CWE/Cortex 

2) talking with Forest Park Forever and truly double down as a tourist attraction if you could get tracks & wire farther into the park, to the zoo?   

Yes, I know it will never happen but I will keep posting that the Loop Trolley will never succeed with tourism until it gets to the St Louis Zoo

I think there are opportunities left...

The TDD could contract Bi-State to operate busses along the route using the dedicated right-of-way and to keep stations clean. $200k contract annually. This could lead to an amendment in the agreement with FTA.

Why might the FTA accept this?
Because the Circulator Grant covered fixed rail AND bus circulators that included substantial station improvements (of which the trolley did).

It would be reasonable to say that in such a high traffic area, the dedicated BUS lanes and bump out stations were not bad investments, as long as a circulator is running.

The FTA could fully accept this and agree that in the future, when TDD revenue increases, the trolley vehicles could be sustainable OR they could seek instead a % of funding that went to rail/wire.


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What a nightmare.

I'm curious of the USDOT process for approving the grant. There were other applicants, 281 according to a post in this thread. How did they choose this one?

Memory lane from 2010

Stl Public Radio - Would Loop trolley spark development or remain a tourist gimmick? Part 2

https://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/wo ... ick-part-2

Stltoday - Loop transit project is a little engine that darn well could

https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/editor ... f8fb6.html

I’m still
Optimistic that this won’t sting as much as it sounds but then again what do I know. We’ll see how this all plays out on how bad it could get if at all.


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I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

quincunx wrote: ↑

Feb 17, 2020

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Strange for the representative of a district containing two Metrolink stations (Wellston and Rock Road) to call for defunding Metro. I would think the residents of the 86th that rely on that service (and the bus service along Delmar, Olive, Page and Rock Road) wouldn't be thrilled about it. 

Joke's on you, state funding for Bi-State barely exists as it is.