Delmar Loop Trolley

urban_dilettante · PostDec 30, 2019#18012019-12-30T06:25+00:00

"For I hath predicted fourscore moons bygone that the undoing of thou foulest trolley wouldst come to pass!"

tone down the drama. and i really don't get the bragging. congrats on foreseeing a pretty obvious outcome that wasn't really a surprise to anyone?

Joe Edwards has done a LOT of things right. this one was a bad idea. it happens. i hope it can be salvaged and turned into something useful. i would be all for extending the tracks down Delmar to the CWE, or through the park, as long as it operates as transit—whether with historic or modern cars—and not as an amusement park ride.

PostDec 30, 2019#18022019-12-30T06:28+00:00

hebeters2 wrote: ↑
Dec 30, 2019
Free in Little Rock https://www.littlerockfamily.com/post/1 ... ll-of-2019
“....riders must ride "with a purpose." That means no aimless circles around the city for hours. “
Seen numerous campers on metro link

in case you haven't noticed, this thread is about the trolley, not metrolink.

Trololzilla · PostDec 30, 2019#18032019-12-30T08:23+00:00

^ But... they've just gotta get in their regularly scheduled "random link that's at best tangentially related to the topic at hand" post.

imran · PostDec 30, 2019#18042019-12-30T12:42+00:00

Naysayers were at first critical that the Trolley opening was so delayed and they are critical now that it hit a pause.

It took Joe Edwards years to navigate through bureaucracy, Setting up a TDD, TIGER grant application and NIMBY lawsuits but he made it happen.
He rushed to prove it could be done; got it going without the full complement of cars, on a limited and unpredictable schedule and before the TDD had banked a bigger cushion of money.
It ran ?200K short and they made the responsible decision to halt operations til finances get figured out rather than incur further loss.
Much respect for the man.

Maybe wait on the self-congratulations till this actually concludes.?

framer · PostJan 07, 2020#18052020-01-07T19:26+00:00

Here's a pretty thorough write-up on the Loop Trolley in Railway Age (plus lots of good pics):

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/li ... desirable/

gary kreie · PostJan 09, 2020#18062020-01-09T16:23+00:00

About what is the actual cost to run the trolley? In other words, if you write off everything spent so far as sunk cost, and wanted to run the Trolley on existing tracks for free, what would that cost per month, say? I assume that is the amount you would have to raise from other sources to make it free. How could it be much more than bus operations? Some things are old and need more maintenance vs. buses. But electric motors, no tires, no pollution controls, no fuel, etc. are simpler than a bus.

Options - 1) Free with purchase receipt today from a business along Delmar, plus 2) Major single sponsor such as say SW Airlines, or Schnucks, who could promote it as a tourist attraction. 3) Free with City Museum ticket purchase, Aquarium purchase? 4) Promote MUNY connect to restaurants on Delmar? 5) Include as part of a St. Louis passport card tourists can buy like the ones in other cities, 6) have a trolley bar night once per week with beer or wine etc. on board. 7) Discount resident-only passes with free jump on and jump off. 8. Day passes with free jump on jump off.

Also, what if you shortened the trip, for a year or so, to just go from U City Hall to the Metro-link station on Delmar with jump on and jump off to get to the major strips of businesses along Delmar and increase frequency of pickups? Then extend to the park in a year or two.

addxb2 · PostJan 18, 2020#18072020-01-18T05:30+00:00

Mr. Roachs plan is released see much more at https://www.bistatedev.org/wp-content/u ... mation.pdf

SeattleNative · PostJan 18, 2020#18082020-01-18T13:30+00:00

addxb2 wrote:Mr. Roachs plan is released see much more at https://www.bistatedev.org/wp-content/u ... mation.pdf

A lot of this sounds very promising. If they wrap this into the ZMD, they’re probably going to extend it to the zoo, no?

Also, their lack of confidence in the current vehicles suggests they might move toward modern low floor cars.

A 4 year window to really test the possibility of the Loop Trolley seems fair. Especially with a couple huge developments opening along DeBaliviere 2 years from now.

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sc4mayor · PostJan 18, 2020#18092020-01-18T14:32+00:00

^ I assume looping (no pun intended heh) the Loop Trolley into the ZMD with a “pass-system” as described here means those with Zoo or Science Center passes, etc could ride it for free. There would be little to no public support to actually add this to the ZMD in terms of a tax supported attraction nor expanding it to the Zoo or further into Forest Park at this point. If it can prove to turn a little revenue after this proposed initial 4 year period of Metro control then maybe expansion could be proposed. Until then, there is absolutely no reason to spend additional money on expanding this line when there are other more useful and pressing transit needs in the region that money could go to. So far this thing has been a failure...expansion should be the last thing on the table.

Ebsy · PostJan 18, 2020#18102020-01-18T22:29+00:00

As I mentioned previously, anyone talking about expansion at this point has their head in the clouds. This project has been a total embarrassment and policy failure, and doubling its length is not going to solve any of the problems.

SeattleNative · PostJan 18, 2020#18112020-01-18T22:47+00:00

sc4mayor wrote:^ I assume looping (no pun intended heh) the Loop Trolley into the ZMD with a “pass-system” as described here means those with Zoo or Science Center passes, etc could ride it for free. There would be little to no public support to actually add this to the ZMD in terms of a tax supported attraction nor expanding it to the Zoo or further into Forest Park at this point. If it can prove to turn a little revenue after this proposed initial 4 year period of Metro control then maybe expansion could be proposed. Until then, there is absolutely no reason to spend additional money on expanding this line when there are other more useful and pressing transit needs in the region that money could go to. So far this thing has been a failure...expansion should be the last thing on the table.

Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

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addxb2 · PostJan 18, 2020#18122020-01-18T22:56+00:00

I’d like to see a Neighbors Annual or Summer Pass added. $50 annual rider pass, add in small discounts at loop businesses. Available to those in surrounding neighborhoods.

The base ridership should be the thousands of people who live within walking distance. If you can get 10% of residents to take 1 ride each month, maybe they’ll bring visiting family or friends, you’re already off to a good start.

RuskiSTL · PostJan 19, 2020#18132020-01-19T12:33+00:00

Ebsy wrote: ↑
Jan 18, 2020
As I mentioned previously, anyone talking about expansion at this point has their head in the clouds. This project has been a total embarrassment and policy failure, and doubling its length is not going to solve any of the problems.

In isolation no. But pushing the line to the northern edge of CWE going hand in hand with other changes like reliable/reasonable operating hours and integration with the rest of transit system would make this an actual transit option rather than a stunt. The whole thing from the beginning was for photo-ops not ridership.

eee123 · PostJan 19, 2020#18142020-01-19T19:36+00:00

As it was, it was useless. You have to have reasonable operating hours and headways. An extension to somewhere useful is also important.

And while we're at it, cleaning up the Delmar Metrolink shooting gallery if we're expecting folks to transfer there.

Leaving the trolley as it is/was is just kicking the can down the road on a bad idea.

MarkHaversham · PostJan 20, 2020#18152020-01-20T01:01+00:00

Ebsy wrote: ↑
Jan 18, 2020
As I mentioned previously, anyone talking about expansion at this point has their head in the clouds. This project has been a total embarrassment and policy failure, and doubling its length is not going to solve any of the problems.

I thought the main problem was that it doesn't go anywhere, so doubling its length seems like a potential solution to me.

GoHarvOrGoHome · PostJan 21, 2020#18162020-01-21T15:18+00:00

IMO the trolley would have been a more effective tourist trolley if it was located in Forest Park replacing the route of the Forest Park Trolley in a Loop that hits the History Museum, Grand Basin, Art Museum, Zoo, World's Fair Pavilion/Boathouse, and Muny. A future extension into CWE could pretty easily hit the Jewel Box, Science Center, and Steinberg.

Attach that BETTER route to the Loop Trolley and suddenly this thing actually becomes appealing and useful.

However this is definitely a pipe dream unless Forest Park Forever decides to pick up the trolley as a pet project

STLEnginerd · PostJan 21, 2020#18172020-01-21T16:35+00:00

Irrespective of whether it would solve the problem, I think, as a political reality, laying new tracks is a non-starter unless they can find a way to make the current system a success.

addxb2 · PostJan 21, 2020#18182020-01-21T17:03+00:00

A good test of the forest park theory will be if Metro expands the seasonal park circulator (a bus) along the corridor, currently it terminates at MetroLink.

The bus could use the trolley row and do a turn around at U. City.

sc4mayor · PostJan 21, 2020#18192020-01-21T20:24+00:00

Bi-State to pursue new plan to save the Loop Trolley
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... -loop.html

The short end: Bi-State will instead pursue a contract to operate the Loop Trolley for 4 years (still using the leftover federal grant money) instead of a full take over. This protects Bi-State's liability should things not work out in the future. The hope is that within four years the Loop TDD is simply pulling in enough revenue to cover operations by then.

Full text:

Bi-State Development this week will move forward on a plan to merely operate the shuttered Loop Trolley rather than pursuing a complete takeover of the system.
The move is designed to limit liability for Bi-State, operator of the region's transit systems, in case the trolley would close again, possibly triggering a clawback of federal funds used to build the streetcar. Bi-State's board in December initially gave CEO Taulby Roach the OK to explore a full takeover of the trolley, a move that would have involved becoming the official recipient of federal funds for the system. Instead, the board on Friday will be asked to vote on a plan allowing Roach to negotiate a contract with the trolley's owner, Loop Trolley Transportation Development District (TDD), to operate the trolley for four years.

The 2.2-mile trolley system, which runs from the Delmar Boulevard entertainment district to the History Museum in Forest Park, is currently operated by a nonprofit, but closed last month amid low ridership and struggles implementing the number of streetcars originally envisioned. Under Bi-State's new plan, the TDD would still own the trolley assets and remain the recipient of the roughly $34 million in federal grants used to construct them. The whole project cost $52 million. In an interview Tuesday, Roach said having Bi-State take over operations wouldn't require additional local tax dollars, at least for the four-year period of any proposed operating contract. Currently, he said, the trolley is running a $240,000 annual deficit. But the Federal Transit Administration will allow Bi-State to utilize some $2 million in grants to fill that gap, plus spending on maintenance and capital costs, he said. "This allows us to try and see if we can run this so that it is a safe and real transit asset," Roach said. Roach said the hope is that revenue from the TDD — currently $860,000 a year from a 1% sales tax imposed in the Loop — will increase enough so that the trolley becomes a "self-sustaining asset."

Even if Bi-State's board votes to move forward, Roach said it's too early to know when the trolley could re-open. But he said his staff would try for spring.
Bi-State, which is primarily funded by St. Louis County, St. Clair County and the city of St. Louis, operates the MetroLink light rail and MetroBus transit services. Roach said that if Bi-State operates the trolley, it will work to better incorporate it with the region's other transit assets, including a bus that operates in Forest Park. Trolley tickets are not currently transferable with MetroLink and MetroBus, which have stops on or near its route.

wabash · PostJan 21, 2020#18202020-01-21T23:55+00:00

Sounds like a good path forward for all the parties involved.

dredger · PostJan 22, 2020#18212020-01-22T00:56+00:00

wabash wrote: ↑
Jan 21, 2020
Sounds like a good path forward for all the parties involved.

Agree, Gives time for consistent ops over a couple of summer seasons/holidays and gives some time to see what revenues come in as the tax district grows with development.

It also gives some time to what I think will be looked at hard by the folks at Forest Park Forever. Never say never, I can definitely see Forest Park Forever taking a hard look at what it would take to extend the tracks another mile or so to get near the zoo. It is one of the regions top draws/attractions and the one attraction you could argue that would add ridership to a tourist line. I wouldn't be surprised if Joe is not working that angle in the background.

wabash · PostJan 22, 2020#18222020-01-22T01:38+00:00

This plan is bolstered by the fact that the TDD has a pretty solid development path to self-sufficiency:

-Church’s site @ Skinker & Delmar mixed-use
-Pearl Development project along the west side of DeBaliviere
-310 DeBaliviere/Talayna’s site apartment project which includes retail
-Previously planned Wash. U. Loop Lofts Phase II @ Enright & Westgate - which wouldn’t include retail but would bring more adjacent student population.

Along with the Link in the Loop/CVS building opening and perhaps Joe Edwards’ new adult playground opening.

quincunx · PostJan 22, 2020#18232020-01-22T02:09+00:00

Do the TIFs take half the TDD sales tax receipts?

STLEnginerd · PostJan 22, 2020#18242020-01-22T10:59+00:00

addxb2 wrote: ↑
Jan 21, 2020
A good test of the forest park theory will be if Metro expands the seasonal park circulator (a bus) along the corridor, currently it terminates at MetroLink.

The bus could use the trolley row and do a turn around at U. City.

of course if they were smart they would have done this in the first place...

bwcrow1s · PostJan 22, 2020#18252020-01-22T12:57+00:00

How many cars would it take to have reasonable headways if it extended all through Forest Park? It can't go that quickly through FP I imagine, and that's not a short route. It already has huge problems with two cars that don't go into the park, and never even got a third up and running. You'd need like 8 cars to have 15 minute cycles I imagine.

Delmar Loop Trolley

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