Great to hear it has such a strong likelihood of being back in operation.
The proximity to Wash U, bus service and metrolink stations has existed for decades but the current wave of rehabs/construction did not really start until the Trolley plan was declared . Of course the Trolley Barn itself but then the building across it. The Gotham development happened on the heels of the Trolley announcement. Look back at the renderings for the Everly (the largest project the loop has seen in ages) that showed a trolley rolling by? Even the Pearl project renderings show the trolley. Its not just a co-incidence.dredger wrote: ↑Dec 27, 2019I just can't put much credit to the fact that the Loop Trolley was a factor in those development decisions, maybe way off base. The recent mixed use proposals as of late are either next to/walkable to current metrolink stations, have bus service and or manageable walk from the Loop to Wash U campus via Skinker. I think you see a rebounding area that already has strong connections to institutions, parks and transit options without the Trolley. Fixed transit helps the perception but the Loop Trolley wasn't built to that perception either.imran wrote: ↑Dec 27, 2019Of all the money we've wasted over the years though (the airport runway, the dueling outlet malls, the Stan Musial bridge, 300+ million for glorified landscaping at the arch grounds etc etc) at least this 'boondoggle' inspires me. And others apparently, leading to three mixed-use projects along its path with another 3-4 in the pipeline.hebeters2 wrote: ↑Dec 26, 2019Its not haters. This project was a waste of money and a boondoggle. On Dec 29th it closes.
I do like the vision of one day of maybe adding a low floor modern street car down East Delmar and then making a hard right down Euclid and or Boyle coming to stop at either respective metrolink station in CWE/CORTEX. I think that would be a big boost for Delmar Divide in providing fixed transit to huge jobs hub. But their is a good argument that you could go in with better, electric buses and much more frequency as a better transit solution.
You can choose to dismiss the trolley. I continue to see it as a strategic move to stitch the loop and SD together and focus energy/interest in the area to spur investment.
^ I don't dismiss the trolley. I just think its relevance is tourist oriented rather than transit oriented. My perspective is that the current round of development is tied to Wash U investment/committment into the Loop and current economic cycle.
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^I can't help but think both are true. Wash U. has certainly had a very strong and positive impact on the Loop. But so too has Joe Edwards. The sheer volume of restoration and construction that came out of his dreams staggers my mind. And it's no surprise that a trolley that grew out of his vision should be a tourist destination. Tourism is what he does. He's an entertainer. A very very grand entertainer. If we have a Samuel L. Rothapfel it is Joe Edwards. He builds theatres. He builds hotels. He builds entertainment. And he makes us all dream a little bigger and a little better. Maybe the trolley is a dream too far, but . . . I live in hope. In the end, any great entertainer needs collaborators; theatre is never really a one person gig, even when it appears to be. Maybe with the right stagehands shining the right light and making it snow on Christmas there will be a guiding star for the Loop Trolley yet. I live in hope. I dream. No matter what else you say, it is a thing of beauty.
^Amen, SP! "What oft was thought but ne'er so well express'd."
And while we're dreaming... maybe the Metro takeover would mean that it is more likely that this will turn into actual transit. Maybe even converted to a modern KC style streetcar?
And while we're dreaming... maybe the Metro takeover would mean that it is more likely that this will turn into actual transit. Maybe even converted to a modern KC style streetcar?
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Area residents just don't have a reason to ride the trolley in its current form. Who would want to spend $4 round trip per person to ride the slower trolley? The strip is walkable but nowhere near car free. When most residents have cars and free parking is accessible throughout the entirety of the route, why would anyone choose the trolley?
I hope Metro at least experiments with making the trolley free. Just give it a year, see what happens.
I hope Metro at least experiments with making the trolley free. Just give it a year, see what happens.
I think a vision of modern KC style streetcar for East Delmar with a hard right turn on either Euclid or Boyle for access to CWE/CORTEX jobs is something that the city should look into, what it would it take fund, build and how operate it as a free service to compliment & build bridge development of Delmar Divide. It also give the ability to phase in expansion across I64 into the Grove. Euclid is my thought as you can make it favorable to transit, build a separate streetcar/pedestrian/bicycle only bridge across the freeway while keeping Boyle auto oriented with its existing freeway ramp. Personally, I think that would drive much more development into area that might not see it as it relates to location of new development.danke0 wrote: ↑Dec 27, 2019And while we're dreaming... maybe the Metro takeover would mean that it is more likely that this will turn into actual transit. Maybe even converted to a modern KC style streetcar?
How much could that incorporate the existing Loop Trolley? not sure but it does give the unique setup with access to metrolink on either end of a new city only streetcar as well as a vision to utilize existing city transit taxes.
There are plenty of reasons for area residents or visitors to ride the streetcar. They are similar to the reasons people have for riding the San Francisco cable cars, the Roosevelt Island Tramway in New York, the Angel’s Flights funicular railway in LA, every heritage streetcar system in the country (which are generally slower than driving), or the other attractions operated by Metro like the riverboat cruise or Arch tram - neither of which is specifically designed to serve “area residents”.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote:Area residents just don't have a reason to ride the trolley in its current form. Who would want to spend $4 round trip per person to ride the slower trolley? The strip is walkable but nowhere near car free. When most residents have cars and free parking is accessible throughout the entirety of the route, why would anyone choose the trolley?
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^Thank you Danke and Framer. I too am an entertainer, rail enthusiast, and once in a while heritage trolley patron. (Here and elsewhere.) Dream no small dreams, they say.
So percentage of a bus line.....how much would it cost Metro to make the Trolley free?GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Dec 27, 2019From Scott Ogilvie
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Metro said it’s the preliminary proposal to its board that it would cost $1.1m a year to run it. The CID that funds the trolley generates about $800-900k a year, so another 200-300k to make it free
Of all the legitimate complaints about the trolley, this one is the most frivolous. Cyclists have learned to share the roads with streetcars/trams/trolleys in cities all around the world, not to mention even right here in St Louis through mid-‘60s. The Loop wouldn’t even exist if not for streetcar tracks.
Most people seem to like the idea of extending the trolley through the park. I'm wondering, though, would it be able to make it up Art Hill?
Please no! If there's any extension it surely should be to Kingshighway.framer wrote: ↑Dec 28, 2019Most people seem to like the idea of extending the trolley through the park. I'm wondering, though, would it be able to make it up Art Hill?
It shouldn’t be extended period lol. The region needs to focus its limited transit dollars on expanding our already working light rail system.
I'm just curious if the current trolley cars are capable of climbing the hill to the art museum.
Are people in this thread snorting cocaine? There is no way a single penny will be spent expanding the Loop Trolley.
Never say never, and how much has the Forever Forest Park has raised and plowed back into Forest Park? I would say adding tracks, some wire and a car or two to get streetcar past the History Museum is very doable and wouldn't be surprised if its not on someone's mind the moment the first trolley started runningEbsy wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2019Are people in this thread snorting cocaine? There is no way a single penny will be spent expanding the Loop Trolley.
I'd rather you not resort to insults. Disagree all you want without being crass....pleaseEbsy wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2019Are people in this thread snorting cocaine? There is no way a single penny will be spent expanding the Loop Trolley
As I predicted the trolley is shuttered. Its fate is unknown. Now to clean up...Remove the trolley curb at the intersection of north on DeBaliviere at Forest Park That meeting of the trolley at Forest Park has been an ongoing impediment. Delmar from DeBaliviere to the Delmar station should be reconfigured. If the trolley does not run regularly by late 2020 than realistic deconstruction/reconfigure should be planned.
Fitting for me to be in Kansas City riding on the free streetcar when the Trolley went under and closed down. It's sad to see it get shut down, maybe temporarily, but this is a true embarrassment. There were a few people I overheard talking about the Streetcar vs. the Loop Trolley. Most, in their short discussions, came to the conclusion that having a free streetcar is far better than paying a fare for something that doesn't really go anywhere.
Personally, if Metro were to take over the Loop Trolley and made it free, I think it would be utilized more. It's no doubt novelty but if the Debaliviere strip takes off with development, this could act as a good link between the Loop and Debaliviere. Extending the Loop Trolley doesn't seem reasonable at this point or at any point in the future unless population density that would support transit usage shows up. Extending into Forest Park wouldn't make really good sense. If it were to be extended, bring it down to the Central West End, but you need to get people willing to utilize the network. And if it were to be extended, purchase modern streetcar vehicles. The ones we have now are too touristy for something that could/would become a legitimate transit line under an extension to the CWE.
It's now the time for Metro, if they want to take it over, to look at the options and figure out a good plan to make this work. It's been a complete failure from conception. Took forever to start construction, construction went over time, ridership fell way short of what they hoped, and revenue just wasn't there. There needs to be a logical plan to make this work and if making it free works, so be it. We need to try to make good out of what is seen as a toy and joke by others in St. Louis and other cities.
I write this thinking back to a few years ago where I got my ass chewed out on here and on social media for hating on the Trolley and calling it a waste. Was I wrong? Doesn't seem like it. It's waste of money that could've gone towards better infrastructure projects and not a toy. It was a headache for businesses during construction and now it's an embarrassment that has people looking at us like we're crazy. Now the adult (Metro) has to come in and probably fix the mess that the child (Joe Edwards) created. He should stick to being a showman, not a transit agency.
Personally, if Metro were to take over the Loop Trolley and made it free, I think it would be utilized more. It's no doubt novelty but if the Debaliviere strip takes off with development, this could act as a good link between the Loop and Debaliviere. Extending the Loop Trolley doesn't seem reasonable at this point or at any point in the future unless population density that would support transit usage shows up. Extending into Forest Park wouldn't make really good sense. If it were to be extended, bring it down to the Central West End, but you need to get people willing to utilize the network. And if it were to be extended, purchase modern streetcar vehicles. The ones we have now are too touristy for something that could/would become a legitimate transit line under an extension to the CWE.
It's now the time for Metro, if they want to take it over, to look at the options and figure out a good plan to make this work. It's been a complete failure from conception. Took forever to start construction, construction went over time, ridership fell way short of what they hoped, and revenue just wasn't there. There needs to be a logical plan to make this work and if making it free works, so be it. We need to try to make good out of what is seen as a toy and joke by others in St. Louis and other cities.
I write this thinking back to a few years ago where I got my ass chewed out on here and on social media for hating on the Trolley and calling it a waste. Was I wrong? Doesn't seem like it. It's waste of money that could've gone towards better infrastructure projects and not a toy. It was a headache for businesses during construction and now it's an embarrassment that has people looking at us like we're crazy. Now the adult (Metro) has to come in and probably fix the mess that the child (Joe Edwards) created. He should stick to being a showman, not a transit agency.
Free in Little Rock https://www.littlerockfamily.com/post/1 ... ll-of-2019
“....riders must ride "with a purpose." That means no aimless circles around the city for hours. “
Seen numerous campers on metro link
“....riders must ride "with a purpose." That means no aimless circles around the city for hours. “
Seen numerous campers on metro link