2,037
Life MemberLife Member
2,037

PostOct 16, 2019#1726

I think the dilemma is that continuing to spend money on this project is politically toxic, yet the repercussions for letting it go under have the potential to incredibly costly to the City and County. A couple thoughts on the ideas proposed here:

1. Automated trolley cars: this is a stupid idea, the issue is not paying the operators, it is the complete and total lack of demand for the services provided by this line.
2. Using N-S money: while it definitely seems possible that this will happen, as a voter I did not vote to raise taxes to bail out the Loop Trolley but to build an actual mass transit line that will improve the lives of St. Louisans. Hard to see siphoning off the N-S money as anything but a betrayal, similar to what the County has done with the MetroLink expansion funds over the years.

2,688
Life MemberLife Member
2,688

PostOct 16, 2019#1727

Ebsy wrote:
Oct 16, 2019
1. Automated trolley cars: this is a stupid idea, the issue is not paying the operators, it is the complete and total lack of demand for the services provided by this line.
The value of automated circulator is not the reduction in operating cost, but instead the opportunity to increase frequency with smaller vehicles, improve the rider experience, and potentially break this into an actual first/last mile connection to MetroLink. There is opportunity to share this rare dedicated road space between the trolley (primarily tourist) and automated circulators (aimed at improving resident access to transit).

1,642
Totally AddictedTotally Addicted
1,642

PostOct 16, 2019#1728

The Delmar Trolley began as a pet project/nostalgia trip from a really nice guy that everyone loves but there is no denying that it's just not useful or practical. I enjoy watching a vintage trolley going down the street as much as anyone but there is no real need for the Delmar Trolley.

A tram running down the middle of Gravois or Jefferson/Chouteau from at least Cherokee to somewhere near downtown sure makes practical sense in hindsight doesn't it? An actual people mover that would enhance neighborhoods and "shrink" the road and make either Gravois or Jefferson a lot more desirable to boot.

I wonder if St. Louis will ever get any transit money after this debacle.

2,037
Life MemberLife Member
2,037

PostOct 16, 2019#1729

addxb2 wrote:
Oct 16, 2019
Ebsy wrote:
Oct 16, 2019
1. Automated trolley cars: this is a stupid idea, the issue is not paying the operators, it is the complete and total lack of demand for the services provided by this line.
The value of automated circulator is not the reduction in operating cost, but instead the opportunity to increase frequency with smaller vehicles, improve the rider experience, and potentially break this into an actual first/last mile connection to MetroLink. There is opportunity to share this rare dedicated road space between the trolley (primarily tourist) and automated circulators (aimed at improving resident access to transit).
And with what money are we going to pay for any of that? We certainly don't have automated circulators on hand, and I doubt they are even legal in Missouri.

2,688
Life MemberLife Member
2,688

PostOct 16, 2019#1730

I assume some legislation would be needed but they’re operating in at least 8 states right now. It’d be a private-public partnership, the vehicles would be owned and operated by company. Bi-State has mentioned similar contracted services in long-term implementation of Metro Reimagined coveting Downtown, Forest Park, and a few suburban office parks.

sc4mayor
sc4mayor

PostOct 17, 2019#1731

Messenger's take on the Loop Trolley...and Northside:

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/col ... op-story-1

738
Senior MemberSenior Member
738

PostOct 21, 2019#1732

My husband wanted to take his grandpa on the loop trolley. It broke down next to Fitz’s. Got on around 5:30, rode down to the library, started coming back the other way, and stopped in front of the Starbucks next to Fitz’s for around 30 minutes.
All in all, a 45 minute trip to go 1/2 mile down Delmar and back to where we got on.
I don't understand why it seems to always be breaking. Shouldn't this technology be perfected now after 130yrs?
Millionaire boys and their toys. Eye roll. 
What is this trolley for???

6,123
Life MemberLife Member
6,123

PostOct 21, 2019#1733

^I suspect part of the problem is all of the cars are used and adapted. The two newer cars were replicas from Portland that Portland got rid of when they decided they didn't want to mix "vintage" with "modern" on their system. The other car is from Australia by way of Seattle and is a genuine vintage car. (Not sure that one's even entered service yet at all.) Operating something beyond its designed life is always a challenge. You can't get spare parts, and things wear out rather more quickly than you might expect as everything is old. And even parts that haven't been used much might have decayed simply due to time and exposure to life. Vintage equipment is, almost by definition, a bit unreliable. And faux vintage equipment isn't necessarily any better, as it was generally built by smaller firms with less experience in the business. More "handmade" which isn't always a good thing. Kit cars can be great fun, but they're not necessarily any safer or more reliable than the vintage cars they resemble. In fact, sometimes they're even more prone to trouble. So two of the trolleys are "kit cars" and the third is bona-fide old. And that is why they break down.

But it's also why they look charming.

Can't say it enough. This is not now and never was intended to be transit any more than the wheel at Union Station. It's a carnival ride. Just . . . flatter and slower.

738
Senior MemberSenior Member
738

PostNov 01, 2019#1734

NATIONAL HEADLINE:
St. Louis Streetcar Project Running Out of Juice
Loop Trolley in St. Louis is out of money, highlighting risks of reviving old-fashioned service 
St. Louis Streetcar Project Running Out of Juice Loop Trolley in downtown St. Louis is out of money, highlighting risks of reviving old-fashioned service
The Loop Trolley, seen Jan. 3, 2019 in the University City section of St. Louis, is about to hit the end of the line unless it secures more funding.
By Joe Barrett Nov. 1, 2019 7:00 am ET
St. Louis business leaders looking to boost tourism and development spent years bringing the Loop Trolley to fruition, a $52 million streetcar project that runs for 2.2 miles between a historic park and an entertainment-and-business district on the edge of the city.
But it has been a bumpy ride, and now it may have reached a dead end.
The trolley, after just a year of offering limited service, is out of money. The nonprofit that operates the trolley is seeking $700,000 in local funds to continue, or else the service is set to close this month.
Backers say such a cash infusion could keep the system afloat until it receives a refurbished third trolley car early next year, enabling it to expand to full-time service by spring. They say the trolley has already spurred economic development along the route and could be the first step in a more extensive system.
“It would be a horrible shame for the trolley to shut down before the system would even have a chance to demonstrate its value,” said John Meyer, president of the all-volunteer board for Loop Trolley Co., the nonprofit that runs the service.
Not everyone has jumped on board. Some officials have tweeted under #boondoggle to mock the usefulness of the streetcar, which has attracted much lower ridership than envisioned.
“Realistically, it’s a tourist attraction and not that good of one at any rate,” said Tim Fitch, a St. Louis County commissioner, who opposes spending more than the $3 million the county has already kicked in for the project.
Streetcars have been making a comeback in cities across the U.S., as government and business leaders seek new ways to draw people to downtowns. Some, like the ones in St. Louis, resemble the fin-de-siècle versions from the streetcar’s heyday. Others are sleek and modern.
Restaurant diners watched the streetcar go by in November 2018; a 1% sales-tax on businesses along the route has generated close to $700,000 since last year’s opening.
The U.S. Transportation Department has awarded more than $1 billion to 18 streetcar projects across the country since 2009, a spokesman for the department said.
The St. Louis project received a $25 million federal grant in 2010, part of a first wave of federal grants awarded in the wake of the financial crisis.
“They were trying to push dollars out in the street to stimulate the economy,” said Jeffrey Boothe, executive director of the Community Streetcar Coalition, which advocates for streetcars. He said some of the projects approved at the time hadn’t done enough analysis or were being proposed by entities that had never operated a transit system before.
The federal government now requires more rigor in its grant applications, he said. “We can chalk it up to lessons learned,” Mr. Boothe said.
The most successful trolley projects, like those in Seattle and Portland, are fully integrated into the existing transportation infrastructure, generating traffic from more than just tourists, said Jeff Brown, chairman of the department of urban and regional planning at Florida State University.
At St. Louis streetcar around 1890; today, the imperiled Loop Trolley project highlights the risk in reviving historic features.
The Embark streetcar project in Oklahoma City, built entirely with local funds, has attracted local-business sponsorships totaling $500,000 and spurred development along its two routes, said Michael Scroggins, a spokesman for the project. Ridership has been around 37,000 a month since it launched in December, he said.
There was a certain appeal to bringing a trolley back to St. Louis, site of the movie “Meet Me in St. Louis,” featuring Judy Garland singing the famous “Trolley Song” (“Clang, clang, clang went the trolley….”).
But the St. Louis trolley has had a rough start.
The nonprofit began hiring staff in late 2016, expecting it would be operating by spring 2017. But testing on its refurbished streetcars was still under way in fall of 2017, and the group had burned through its cash. A local foundation came up with $500,000, but it was another year before the trolley finally began service in November 2018.
Only two cars were ready at the outset, so the system could operate only part-time. A third car was needed to be held in reserve for full-time service to assure reliability.
That has held back cumulative ridership to 15,766 since last November and fare income to $32,500 through September this year—much lower than what had been projected under a full-time schedule. The Loop Trolley has also brought in about $689,320 through a 1% sales-tax on businesses along the route, since it launched service last year.
When a third car finally arrived last January, the wheels weren’t compatible with the switches in the tracks, Loop Trolley Co.’s Mr. Meyer said. New wheels now are being forged and the refurbished third car is expected to arrive for testing in January, he said—but now the nonprofit doesn’t have the money to get there.
“The trolley can’t catch a break,” Mr. Meyer said.
St. Louis County Executive Sam Page says he wouldn’t support more funding unless other local entities also kick in.
St. Louis Mayor Lyda Krewson isn’t ruling it out.
“It’s always easiest to say no,” Mayor Krewson said in an interview, noting that backing away from the streetcar could imperil efforts to get other federal grants in the future. “We need to figure out how to make it work.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/st-louis-s ... listb_pos2

12K
Life MemberLife Member
12K

PostNov 06, 2019#1735

Loop Trolley gets loan, Bi-State considers takeover:

 https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... 0ifQ%3D%3D

251
Full MemberFull Member
251

PostNov 06, 2019#1736

Bi-State Development is weighing whether and how it can be involved in a plan to save the Loop Trolley, according to people familiar with the matter. Options include taking over the streetcar's operations, they said.

At the same time, the taxing district that constructed the trolley has voted to give the nonprofit that runs the system a $90,000 loan, prolonging its operation until December, according to a trolley spokeswoman. The trolley had said it could shut down Nov. 15 without an additional $200,000, plus another $500,000 to keep operating into next year, but the St. Louis County Council expressed no interest in providing the money, and no funding options have emerged from the city of St. Louis.

It wasn't immediately clear what a plan involving Bi-State could look like or how the agency could pay for it. Bi-State operates the Metro Transit Agency, which includes bus and MetroLink light rail systems.
A Bi-State spokeswoman, Patti Beck, would say only, "We have been asked to evaluate viable operating options aimed at avoiding default."

Even before the trolley opened in November 2018, there were questions about why fares on the Loop Trolley, which runs from the University City Library to the Missouri History Museum in Forest Park, were not transferable with Metro, which operates a MetroLink stop near the museum and bus routes in the Delmar Loop. Technology was cited as one hurdle then.

2,076
Life MemberLife Member
2,076

PostNov 06, 2019#1737

It's funny because on the Transit Chat in the P-D today, they said very clearly they are in no way looking at becoming involved with the Loop Trolley.

sc4mayor
sc4mayor

PostNov 07, 2019#1738

^ Apparently Roach at Bi-State confirmed it to the PD:
That includes the possible Bi-State/Metro takeover of the line, Bi-State CEO Taulby Roach confirmed in a text message.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... the-latest

13K
Life MemberLife Member
13K

PostNov 07, 2019#1739

The TDD has money beyond what it already gives to operate the Trolley? Or am I misunderstanding how the TDD and Trolley Company relate?

41
New MemberNew Member
41

PostNov 07, 2019#1740

Meyer has said city and county aid could sustain the trolley until a third car could begin operating next spring.

Trolley officials have blamed most of its financial problems on lengthy and unforeseen delays in the delivery of cars, which held down private sponsorship, ad revenue, donations and ticket sales, and depleted reserves.
I don't see how the third car operating will be a panacea for the trolley.  

Yes, they can expand days and hours of operation, but the trolley is already running on what they figure will be the busiest times/days.  Total ridership will go up, but so will operational costs, likely at a higher rate than ticket sales.

If they are currently looking to cut hours of operation to save money, how is further expanding into off-peak times going to help with the finances?  Will the third car really add that much to the private sponsorship and ad revenue?  I find that hard to believe.

I do think that if the trolley had launched will three cars, things might have gone a little differently.  Unfortunately, I think most people have already made up their minds on the trolley, and it has become toxic.

6,123
Life MemberLife Member
6,123

PostNov 07, 2019#1741

^Opinions here are pretty calcified, and doubtless among loop regulars as well, but I think there might be at least a little bit more flexibility in the larger area. The real question is what would it take to drag non-loopers into the loop to take a ride. And I don't pretend I have an answer to that. We all seem to get a little stuck in our own circles.

2,419
Life MemberLife Member
2,419

PostNov 07, 2019#1742

Edwards should give a small discount/coupon at any of his restaurants and attractions when a trolley ticket from that day is presented.

Get on the trolley, get $2 off or a drink free or something at Blueberry Hill.

Buy 2, get 1 for the ferris wheel at Magic Mini Golf.

And if Bi-State takes over, he should do the same with valid Metro tickets. The monthly pass cards would be harder, but just take people at their word.

2,632
Life MemberLife Member
2,632

PostNov 07, 2019#1743

Or allow people to buy family vacation packages like you see in major tourist cities like Chicago Pass, but on a smaller scale. A "Loop Card" could provide discounts or passes for all of the Loop attractions while acting as a three day pass for the trolley. 

Come to think of it STL as a whole should adopt the a similar system for the region. It can act as a transit pass and provide access to attractions from the Aquarium, to Six Flags, to the Magic House. Tourism isn't going away anytime soon, let's lean into it.

6,123
Life MemberLife Member
6,123

PostNov 07, 2019#1744

^That is a solid suggestion. I like the combined transit pass/attraction voucher idea.

5,705
Life MemberLife Member
5,705

PostNov 07, 2019#1745

I really think Bi-state is wrong path to go down.   The reality to me is the Loop Trolley is poorly conceived transit as it is, probably should have never gotten that Fed grant in first place and for a transit agency to take over doesn't address what the intended use of building upon the Loop Entertainment District and in part connecting an local entertainment district it to Forest Park. 

What I would love to see, Joe Edwards advocate a double down position of extending the loop trolley to the zoo which is by far one the biggest regional tourist draws that will only get bigger and incorporate the Loop Trolley into city and or county park departments with additional revenues coming from the museum district to support Ops as free ride.   Forest Park Forever taking on raising capital for third trolley and track/wire extension to Zoo.  Another way to look at it or justify supporting the cost, TDD supports the very local use of free ride to and from metrolink and Museum District tax supports the tourist free ride on historic trolleys into Forest Park & associated tax supported institutions.   

2,426
Life MemberLife Member
2,426

PostNov 07, 2019#1746

Dredger- I agree with you-it would be a practical transportation option within the park. I’m sure this idea has been floated, but my hunch is that the inevitable pushback from a whole array of citizens and entities renders it a nonstarter. With all the blame the trolley gets when a cyclist gets injured when their bike tires get jammed in the tracks, can you imagine the outrage from the cycling community if a park extension of the line was proposed (as if no one rode bikes when the original streetcar system was in place)? The argument that the trolley is unsafe for cyclists is the weakest argument against the system in my opinion- streetcar tracks were present every major city a generation ago, and there were plenty of bike riders back then too. On top of that, I imagine many more people would object to the “unsightly” overhead wires and screeching rails that would encroach on the beauty and serenity of the park.

Personally, I would 100% support extending it into the park.

2,688
Life MemberLife Member
2,688

PostNov 07, 2019#1747

They need a programming budget. Everyone agrees its a tourist attraction, so why are they expecting that locals (80% of the opportunity) will return more than once? I've seen it once, why ride it again? Bring me back with something worth seeing. The comedy act was close...

Why weren't there actors as "Meet Me in St. Louis" ghost handing out candy on Halloween?
Why wouldn't they have Santa on the trolley throughout the holidays?
Couples packages with wine/champagne and chocolates on Valentines day?

6,123
Life MemberLife Member
6,123

PostNov 07, 2019#1748

^You could also double down on the "vintage" experience. Add vintage uniforms. Use tokens rather than modern tickets. Make them "collectible" so that people might even buy tokens they don't intend to use. (Change them out every now and then, perhaps. Just for that reason.) Keep the modern electronics as inconspicuous as possible. Make the vintage storytellers a part of the experience: St. Louis then in the middle of the now. It goes right past the history museum. Capitalize on that. (I think the history museum was even on board . . . at one time.) And frankly, they a heck of a solid  marketing campaign to build some goodwill. Something catchy. Some guerrilla marketing. Better social networking.

And maybe have some vintage cyclists riding alongside not getting stuck in the tracks to show how it's done. However that might be. Go to Zurich and investigate, maybe. They have both living side by side. (Or at least did when last I was there.)

2,929
Life MemberLife Member
2,929

PostDec 10, 2019#1749

STL Biz Journal: Bi-State CEO given OK to explore Loop Trolley takeover

6-3 vote that is not being considered a "rubber stamp" for a full takeover, that there has to be a full business case for acquiring and operating the Loop Trolley line. Meanwhile, the line's final day of operation remains set for December 29th.

sc4mayor
sc4mayor

PostDec 10, 2019#1750

^ Edit:  Missed ya by one minute lol.

Bi-State's Executive Board voted 7-3 today to grant permission for Roach to negotiate a proposal for a takeover of the Loop Trolley.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... op-story-1

I honestly think this is the best course of action.  I know many are screaming for it to be shut down but I think that does more harm than good.  One, it would be far more expensive having to repay the federal grant money, and two it could chill future federal grants for other transportation projects.  It would be cool if Bi-State could find a way to operate it with no fare.  I'm sure that would be controversial for some, but I say just embrace it as a tourist attraction and make it free like so many other attractions in town.

Read more posts (596 remaining)