Delmar Loop Trolley

imran · PostOct 12, 2019#16762019-10-12T01:06+00:00

I have to say when I rode the KC street car ( which admittedly was over a 3 day weekend), the majority of the riders were groups of people who seemed to be going around to entertainment venues and restaurants/bars. On the weekend at least it was acting like a downtown circulator.
And agree to disagree but I’m happy to see $25 mil go to a city attraction rather than another highway widening project somewhere.

quincunx · PostOct 12, 2019#16772019-10-12T01:11+00:00

The 1% sales tax in the Loop Trolley TDD funds it. About $800k per year. A StLBJ article a earlier this year said receipts in the TDD were down 7% in 2018. The numbers on the MO DoR website don't agree, down 1.23%. I wonder how much of that was due to the Circle K closing.

dredger · PostOct 12, 2019#16782019-10-12T02:06+00:00

STLinCHI wrote: ↑
Oct 12, 2019
Somehow the ride has to be cost-free with increased frequency. Not sure who pays for the operation now. $32 K isn't going to cover much, that's for sure.

Agree, cost free and my two cents how to get there and grow ridership comes to a double down play that the trolley at end of day is an attraction not transit to the benefit two specific areas for the both the city & county. Those areas being The Loop and Forest Park
So my two prong double down plan
1) Forest Park Forever funds rail & wire expansion into the park with stop at front door of the St. Louis Zoo, maybe even a phased extension to the old Forest Park Hospital site if the zoo intends to go all in with themed hotel/resort hotel amenity and or the Science Center.
2) Incorporate Trolley into the City-County Museum District, accepting revenues from both TDD and Museum District to make the ride free and add frequency (say for summer months, or say Thurs - Sun).
- Getting tracks farther into Forest Park as per first item makes the second item more doable in my opinion
It all comes down that the Feds made a choice in giving out that grant in the first place and Joe Edwards made a really good sales pitch. But the money is spent and time to embrace Trolley as an attraction not transit.

Trololzilla · PostOct 12, 2019#16792019-10-12T08:29+00:00

^ Have to agree. An expanded Loop Trolley with stops at most or all of Forest Park's main attractions (or at least being able to funnel from the major parking lots into a few well placed stops) would be a wonderful addition to the park.

wabash · PostOct 12, 2019#16802019-10-12T11:47+00:00

quincunx wrote:The 1% sales tax in the Loop Trolley TDD funds it. About $800k per year. A StLBJ article a earlier this year said receipts in the TDD were down 7% in 2018. The numbers on the MO DoR website don't agree, down 1.23%. I wonder how much of that was due to the Circle K closing.

The demise of the Circle K brings up an interesting question: What’s the impact of the CVS going to be on the TDD? I think it’s safe to say the CVS will be the single biggest turnover business along the entire Loop, potentially by by a few times. It will certainly be a significant increase from the Circle K (I’m guessing gasoline sales were not included in the TDD, and that prescription drug sales won’t be either, but not sure).

While there will be some cannibalization from the Family Dollar and United Provisions, overall it could be a big shot in the arm to the TDD.

quincunx · PostOct 12, 2019#16812019-10-12T14:20+00:00

Does the TDD tax get TIF'd? Or will it no go to pay off the TIF bonds?
I think the development will contribute to the East Loop CID. At least the fact that the Everly contributes despite its property tax abatement.

dbInSouthCity · PostOct 12, 2019#16822019-10-12T16:13+00:00

The trolley has asked the county for $200,000 ASAP or it will be insolvent by next month and it’s asked for another $500,000 for 2020.

hebeters2 · PostOct 12, 2019#16832019-10-12T16:26+00:00

Let It Die! No more county money or any money from the public! 200,000 half a million there Stop! To put more money into this rats hole is unconscionable!

sc4mayor · PostOct 12, 2019#16842019-10-12T17:08+00:00

^ I agree and disagree. Letting it die would not only be embarrassing, but a total waste. Tracks, a maintenance building, cars, all those millions pissed away. But I do agree that there shouldn't be any pubic money going towards it outside of it's specific TDD, nor should it be added to the ZMD. This is a gimmicky tourist trap, not a well respected cultural institution.

Sell the naming rights. $500,000 a year is a drop in the bucket for most of the larger corporations in town. Whether or not any would want their name on it is an open question though.

chaifetz10 · PostOct 12, 2019#16852019-10-12T18:36+00:00

Sunk cost fallacy. If there isn't a real path forward that creates some intangible benefits, then you can't keep saying "well we paid X for it, so we should keep throwing money at it!" Now, as you mention there are other alternatives to bring in revenue such as possibly selling naming rights or trying to target special events (has anyone used the Trolley as a private moving event space?), but at some point you have to look past the initial price tag and ask if its worth future investments.

sc4mayor · PostOct 12, 2019#16862019-10-12T19:22+00:00

chaifetz10 wrote: ↑
Oct 12, 2019
then you can't keep saying "well we paid X for it, so we should keep throwing money at it!"

Fortunately I didn't say that, at least in terms of county or city funding, of which I am against anymore of going to the Loop Trolley. I also have concerns that such a quick failure would signal the federal government that the St. Louis region isn't worthy of future transit funding. Maybe not, but I can't see that being a good look for the region. I'm not sure how a bunch of abandoned trolley infrastructure would be a benefit to the Loop either, it's not like there's a ton of money around to dig all the tracks and platforms back up. Hence my suggestion that they sell the naming rights or find another way to raise funding privately.

I wasn't a huge proponent of this thing from the start and if it shuts down then so be it, I won't shed a tear, but I hope that doesn't happen. I'm not sure that would be any better for the Loop.

hebeters2 · PostOct 12, 2019#16872019-10-12T19:28+00:00

Loop Trolley could go under next month unless it receives $200K, county executive says (ksdk.com)
https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local ... 2e4fb90187

addxb2 · PostOct 12, 2019#16882019-10-12T20:07+00:00

Instead.
Let’s use the dedicate right-of-way to operate the best autonomous vehicle system in US.

Salt Lake: https://www.ksl.com/article/46576021/dr ... ation-park

https://navya.tech/en/

hebeters2 · PostOct 12, 2019#16892019-10-12T20:10+00:00

Absolutely abbxb2! Lets think beyond the box! This toy trolley is a bust for numerous reasons.

Trololzilla · PostOct 13, 2019#16902019-10-13T06:11+00:00

^^ That'd be neat. But, if we've already got the trolley infrastructure and don't want it to go to waste, why not just take the heritage trams out of service, replace them with modern trams à la KC, maybe try to get the trolley added as part of the ZMD or Metro, and expand the system down into the park and add Metro connectivity? Seems like a better solution IMO.

addxb2 · PostOct 13, 2019#16912019-10-13T12:18+00:00

Trololzilla wrote: ↑
Oct 13, 2019
^^ That'd be neat. But, if we've already got the trolley infrastructure and don't want it to go to waste, why not just take the heritage trams out of service, replace them with modern trams à la KC, maybe try to get the trolley added as part of the ZMD or Metro, and expand the system down into the park and add Metro connectivity? Seems like a better solution IMO.

From my understanding, the dimensions of both the track and overhead wires are unique to streetcars not other light rail vehicles.

10-intuition · PostOct 13, 2019#16922019-10-13T12:44+00:00

Here's hoping that Bi-State development takes over operations of the Loop Trolley. Maybe then it'll be integrated with Metro using their fare structures and passes. However, it'll still be unprofitable with fare box revenue alone and will continue being a white elephant....

kipfilet · PostOct 13, 2019#16932019-10-13T17:16+00:00

Someone mentioned this on Twitter and I couldn't help thinking: imagine that all these funds were thrown at airline incentives. We could have service to London, Frankfurt, Amsterdam for several years. And I have little doubt that would be much more impactful for the region's economy.

sc4mayor · PostOct 13, 2019#16942019-10-13T17:34+00:00

^ Most of those funds came from the federal government in the form of an urban circulator grant and the trolley TDD. I see the point the guy is trying to make but that's just not how transportation funding works. It would not have been possible (or legal) to redirect the TDD funds or the federal monies into anything but this.

I also question the wisdom in subsidizing international flights with millions of dollars when they would almost assuredly disappear once the incentives run out. Never mind the region recently dangling $5 million in incentives for exactly that with nothing to show for it. But all of that is for another thread lol.

urban_dilettante · PostOct 13, 2019#16952019-10-13T17:36+00:00

^^ not sure federal urban circulator grants can be used for airline incentives. probably could have been put towards BRT or metro improvements, though who knows if that proposal would have been funded.

EDIT: ^ beat me to it.

GoHarvOrGoHome · PostOct 13, 2019#16962019-10-13T23:42+00:00

Make it free! It's not like it's making any significant money from fares

dbInSouthCity · PostOct 14, 2019#16972019-10-14T15:33+00:00

Word now is that even if they get the $700k they’ll shut down at end of the year, $700k is just to pay outstanding bills

pattimagee · PostOct 14, 2019#16982019-10-14T16:08+00:00

Seems like they could let them go bankrupt and purchase them for cheaper? Is the LoopTrolley an LLC?

chaifetz10 · PostOct 14, 2019#16992019-10-14T16:27+00:00

I'd contribute $5 if UrbanSTL wanted to buy it.

chriss752 · PostOct 14, 2019#17002019-10-14T16:28+00:00

Just close the money burning machine.

Delmar Loop Trolley

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