^No mention of operating hours or frequency of service. Are those very crucial (and FAQ-worthy) details still not figured out?
Strong Towns - When Your Transit Isn't Meant to be Transit
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/201 ... be-transit
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/201 ... be-transit
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Joe Edwards is a huge fan of nostalgia and, to be fair, it has worked very well for him and for the loop. I really don't think this will be any different. No. It's not transit. It never was. It's an amusement park ride. The loop is an amusement park. To be incredibly frank it has always been one. Since the very day it was built. Quite literally. That's why it's there. It is now and always has been first and foremost about entertainment. Why is anyone surprised to find a roller coaster on Coney Island? Complain all you want about grabbing federal transit funds for an amusement park ride. But you know what? That's pretty much what bike trails are too. And they also get transit funds. Entertainment. Getting transit money. The difference? This is Middle America entertainment and not hipster fun. This is fun for fat people. Unsexy people. Old people. People that like burgers and fifties rock. (Also kids. Kids absolutely eat this stuff up. If you could somehow magically run this from the loop to the City Museum . . . Skipping literally EVERYTHING in between . . . it would still serve its purpose admirably. And have the same ridership, most likely.) He's right. It ain't transit. But if I ever have to hear another hipster biker child complain about this in their lycra play suit . . . I will scream. Loudly.
</rant>
</rant>
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^ i'm not sure that is has worked all that well. certainly the Loop is in better shape than it was in the 90s, but it's been kind-of a roller coaster. there's a lot of empty storefront going on these days... i think the Loop needs to transition from entertainment district to functional neighborhood if its going to survive, which means more residential, more every-day commercial (pharmacy, grocery, clothing, etc), actual transit, etc.
Def more residential. But the proposal to replace the school and build on the lot that now houses the temporary police HQ was shot down. And Loop businesses didn't want structured parking behind the former Cicero's that would go with development.
There's a grocery store and the pharmacy is coming.
Need a hardware store, there used to be one. Though I look east for that- I pitch Goodfellow and Delmar for that.
If Metro reimagined happens as proposed, the 1, 2, and 97 will all run through the Loop
There's a grocery store and the pharmacy is coming.
Need a hardware store, there used to be one. Though I look east for that- I pitch Goodfellow and Delmar for that.
If Metro reimagined happens as proposed, the 1, 2, and 97 will all run through the Loop
I have a different take. I think of the Loop as experiencing rather steady and uninterrupted growth over the last 20+ years, and as being one of the most successful urban/pedestrian retail destinations in the region. The Loop has consistently seen significant investments (Pageant 2000, RAC Building 2003, Moonrise Hotel 2009, Blick Building 2010/2011, Loop Lofts 2014, Everly on the Loop 2017) along with smaller improvements (activation of Regions Bank Building, replacement of Commerce Bank building with additional retail, replacement of True Value building with additional retail). The pipeline is pretty strong right now as well: COCA expansion, Former Shell station office mixed-use project, former Church's Chicken residential mixed-use project, Loop Lofts Phase II residential project. It's a pretty impressive trajectory for what amounts to a 3/4 mile stretch.urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Mar 29, 2018^ i'm not sure that is has worked all that well. certainly the Loop is in better shape than it was in the 90s, but it's been kind-of a roller coaster. there's a lot of empty storefront going on these days...
Whatever you want to call it - entertainment district, business district, retail strip - it's steadily grown over the years and continues to do so. The Loop is a success story. If it seems like there are too many empty storefronts then that puts it on par with many other popular retail districts across the country from Madison to Michigan Avenue.
Whatever the vision for the Loop has been, it's worked. Whether or not that track record will extend to the Loop Trolley is yet to be seen.
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^Edwards is a bright and passionate guy. He really seems to believe in this. He's fought very hard for it when quite a lot of people were against it. And I think no matter what else one might say, you have to give him credit for all the legwork he's done in the district: on major projects, on helping to find folks to fill smaller space, on reaching out to the public, on promotion, on branding, on everything. I really never believed he'd get this done. I really hate to bet against him now. And while it's frustrating to pay for this with one more special sales tax, if it draws shoppers to the area (and I'm beginning to believe it just might) then that investment might pay off. I was skeptical. I remember the rumors were flying thick and fast at the Museum of Transport fifteen odd years ago. I heard the naysayers. Against all odds he's laid tracks and strung wire. It won't get easier, but with the infrastructure out of the way it should get a lot more predictable. Now it's just a matter of hawking tickets. If there's anyone that can sell nostalgia . . .
For the record, I will gladly pay the couple of bucks to ride the thing at least a few times. Not daily. But I'll ride it. And I'll post pictures. I'll even drag along the relative that remembers when that really was transit and not an amusement park ride. (She's excited about it too. As is my father. Hell, my nephew will go nuts when he sees it. And he's seen tons and tons of stuff of the sort, being somewhat obsessed and presently in England.)
Yes, it's becoming more than an entertainment destination. But then so is Disney. It happens. I somehow suspect the entertainment aspect will stay with us for at least a little while longer. And it is leaps and bounds above where it was thirty years ago. Or even fifteen. If you pull back a little the progress has been steady and clearly directional. It only looks choppy if you're too close and it gets a little grainy.
For the record, I will gladly pay the couple of bucks to ride the thing at least a few times. Not daily. But I'll ride it. And I'll post pictures. I'll even drag along the relative that remembers when that really was transit and not an amusement park ride. (She's excited about it too. As is my father. Hell, my nephew will go nuts when he sees it. And he's seen tons and tons of stuff of the sort, being somewhat obsessed and presently in England.)
Yes, it's becoming more than an entertainment destination. But then so is Disney. It happens. I somehow suspect the entertainment aspect will stay with us for at least a little while longer. And it is leaps and bounds above where it was thirty years ago. Or even fifteen. If you pull back a little the progress has been steady and clearly directional. It only looks choppy if you're too close and it gets a little grainy.
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wabash wrote: ↑Mar 30, 2018I have a different take. I think of the Loop as experiencing rather steady and uninterrupted growth over the last 20+ years, and as being one of the most successful urban/pedestrian retail destinations in the region.../quote]urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Mar 29, 2018^ i'm not sure that is has worked all that well. certainly the Loop is in better shape than it was in the 90s, but it's been kind-of a roller coaster. there's a lot of empty storefront going on these days...
Tho I'm not a frequent visitor that's my take as well... to me, it seems like East Loop activity has expanded and there's likely as many businesses open as ever after you count em all up. Districts like this tend to have ups and downs and periods of change (see WashAve & The Landing e.g.) but the continuing popularity of The Loop as an entertainment destination for so long while more recently beginning to see more diversification (with more residential, grocer, etc.) is a pretty solid success story.
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Is the pharmacy a sure thing? I know there was talk of one in the building replacing Shell.
I like United Provisions and it's a grocery store, but I think a more full-service option is needed as well.
I mean, stuff has been built but a lot of it is empty. And much of what has been built has been driven by a combination of Joe Edwards (entertainment oriented) and WUSTL (student storage). Aside From Blick and the pizza place, that entire block is empty. There are several vacancies in the Tivoli building. Cicero's is empty. The former St. Louis Bread Co. is empty. Rocket Fizz is gone. Loop Living is liquidating. Componere gallery now occupies half its former space. Snarf's is gone. The former Smoothie King is still empty. The eyewear place that is seemingly never actually going to open still has papered-over windows. The art space next to the garage is empty. Maybe the storefronts in the new apartment building aren't finished yet, but they still have "Leasing" signs on them so I'm assuming they haven't leased yet. I'm sure I'm forgetting a couple.
This may very well be just a blip before things pick up again, but activity in the Loop is down from what it was 10 years ago.
It's like people got excited about it for a while and then moved on (which seems to be the entertainment district trend in St. Louis). I think expanding east is great and necessary, but it needs to incorporate a significant amount of residential and everyday amenities so that there's a locally-fed, non-entertainment-oriented base of activity along Delmar at all times.
Some basic sidewalk repair/beautification would help as well. The sidewalks in the Loop are absolutely awful.
EDIT: I should clarify, I actually don't think of the Loop as an entertainment district. And much of the commercial along Delmar is actually what I consider basic amenities: restaurants, comic shop, book store, record store, coffee shops, etc. But Joe seems to push that identity, and I think most of the metro has that perception. Again, what the Loop lacks is the indigenous population to support so many amenities.
I think the pharmacy is what makes the building replacing the Shell happen.
I'll just disagree then. I see things like a hotel, grocery store, 24 hour diner, and hundreds of new residential units as having added activity to the Loop in the last decade - particular in terms of the basic amenity/day-to-day services and indigenous population that you're advocating for. Basically I think it's stronger today than at any point in its history. But I suppose that's where we differ.urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Mar 30, 2018....activity in the Loop is down from what it was 10 years ago.
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Add Doughocracy to the list of dust biters.
^ don’t get me wrong; the additional residential is great and heading in the right direction. As long as that trend continues things will be fine. But currently, the 24 hour diner is always 90% empty (and I wouldn’t be surprised if Joe is subsidizing it to keep it open) and, again, there are a TON of empty storefronts. United provisions is great and, as the only grocery store serving the nearby student population, understandably does well.
^ don’t get me wrong; the additional residential is great and heading in the right direction. As long as that trend continues things will be fine. But currently, the 24 hour diner is always 90% empty (and I wouldn’t be surprised if Joe is subsidizing it to keep it open) and, again, there are a TON of empty storefronts. United provisions is great and, as the only grocery store serving the nearby student population, understandably does well.
I agree, the Loop is more vibrant today than ever. Mosre street performers and busier streets than I ever remember in the last two decades. To also say there are "tons of storefronts empty" ... I don't know if I agree about "TONS". Chesterfield and South County Mall have TONS of empty stores. I was in the loop yesterday and I don't find those storefronts creating a huge "void" or recession of people in the district itself. Again, read my rant a page ago for my take on those closings.by wabash » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:34 pm
urban_dilettante wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:52 pm
....activity in the Loop is down from what it was 10 years ago.
I'll just disagree then. I see things like a hotel, grocery store, 24 hour diner, and hundreds of new residential units as having added activity to the Loop in the last decade - particular in terms of the basic amenity/day-to-day services and indigenous population that you're advocating for. Basically I think it's stronger today than at any point in its history. But I suppose that's where we differ.
As for a "Full Service" grocery - I find everything AND MORE at Provisions. They have everything you need IMO. The Peacock Diner is really too big for itself. Could be half the size - but at times - especially weekends is fuller. I would like to see them expand their menu though.
As for having "real" mass transit? What about two METRO stations (Red and Blue Lines) and three bus transit lines down delmar and now a streetcar connection... don't understand that statement. The loop is truly (outside of Downtown) more connected with mass transit than any other district/neighborhood in the city IMO.
As for a pharmacy - there is Schnucks Pharmacy in UCity and Millbrook Pharmacy (LESS THAN 1 MILE from the center of the loop) on Pershing/Big Bend at the Metro Station. Do we need to actually have a pharmacy directly in the loop? It seems like everyone is so handicapped these days. Less than one mile away (transit or car) to the north or to the southwest of Fitz's in the center of the loop. Good grief! Not too mention if a resident in the loop doesn't like Provisions Grocery they can travel transit or car 2.8 miles to a Straubs and Whole Foods in the CWE, Schnucks is 1 mile on Olive, Schnucks on Clayton Rd is 2 miles, Dierbergs (by train or car) is 4 miles. Good grief people.
Agree with Matguy sentiments. In addition, always had the impression that Joe Edwards pushed the trolley as a development tool/tourist tool not transit & think it is a mistake to think in any other terms. In fact, I would double down on tourist aspect by advocating that the Forest Park Forever/St Louis Zoo should get on the trolley (pun intended) & extend it through the park with a stop at the Zoo entrance and maybe even across to the old Forest Park Hospital site - think a larger theme hotel/water park on one end of the trolley and the loop's boutique hotel(s)/music venues & eateries on the other with the zoo & two different metro link stations in between. Plus the Forest Park Forever endowment has muscle/dollars behind it that might help get the loop trolley to a free/no fare ride at some point in the future.matguy70 wrote:As for having "real" mass transit? What about two METRO stations (Red and Blue Lines) and three bus transit lines down delmar and now a streetcar connection... don't understand that statement. The loop is truly (outside of Downtown) more connected with mass transit than any other district/neighborhood in the city IMO.by wabash » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:34 pm
urban_dilettante wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:52 pm
....activity in the Loop is down from what it was 10 years ago.
I'll just disagree then. I see things like a hotel, grocery store, 24 hour diner, and hundreds of new residential units as having added activity to the Loop in the last decade - particular in terms of the basic amenity/day-to-day services and indigenous population that you're advocating for. Basically I think it's stronger today than at any point in its history. But I suppose that's where we differ.
Maybe a future streetcar line could incorporate some of the trolley's infrastructure but doesn't seem logical to me unless you are going Delmar East and then make a turn south to CWE/Cortex. Essentially creating a fixed transit loop between metrolink & a low floor modern streetcar line along Delmar that ties into Forest Park/Boyle metrolink stations. Then you get into the whole different discussion if fixed streetcar line is worth the investment to push development north over existing bus service
Joe also bills it as a way to enable parking in one place and use the trolley to go elsewhere.
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^^^ you're right, the loop does have good access to actual transit. my point was just that the Trolley is a distraction from better connections with/integration with/investment in the existing actual transit. remember that i was originally responding to SP's suggestion that Joe's nostalgia has worked for the loop. i would argue that WU has done more to solidify it. and i guess we can argue over what constitutes "a lot" but if you take a walk down the Loop every 3rd or 4th storefront is vacant. that's a lot in my opinion. maybe it's just that all those businesses weren't special enough. i tend to think it's a combination of that and not enough warm bodies to patronize them. all i'm saying is that i think the Loop is less of a destination attraction these days and is therefore over-retailed with candy stores, hookah places, etc given the population density. so either you increase the density/change the character of the retail or the amount of retail decreases. fortunately i think the Loop is heading in the right direction with more residential. with regard to groceries, pharmacy, etc... i guess i imagine a functional neighborhood as one in which you can walk comfortably to necessities. and, again, UP is great but somewhat specialized in its selections.
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Wash U is absolutely an important factor in everything that's gone on there. I don't want to get into which was more important. Wash U has been there for a long time and they provide a lot of stability. Edwards has provided a lot of energy. The two together; entertainment district and college neighborhood, make the Loop what it is. And of course, a lot of what's there has played to the tastes of college kids, which is changing. So some of the vacancies might have little to do with anything more than that.
But why is the trolley a distraction? What's it distracting anyone from? I don't even really see how it's cut back on street traffic noticeably. On a sunny summer Saturday afternoon that place is still as hopping as it ever was. And on a rainy weekday it's maybe kind of quiet. College kids are perhaps less apt to walk from their dorm or apartment on a cold rainy day when they have class and more so on a sunny day when they don't. (It would certainly describe me well enough, anyway.) And today's college students like fast food and chain restaurants a lot less than I did. (Though I have to say, the McDonald's at UMC was always hopping. And I dearly miss it, as it was a nice hangout for a couple decades of my life. A McDonald's. In a basement.) But to get back to the loop . . .
Yes, we could use better connectivity. We could use better transit. I don't see these two things as mutually exclusive. A bus can and does go down Delmar. We can, and I hope will, expand Metrolink, but probably shouldn't do it along Delmar anyway. (And even if we did, I can't imagine it would work as on street light rail through there.) Again, the trolley has given Delmar a very nice road diet. It's great. Built in. Everyone drives slower through there now. And maybe, just maybe, that won't go away. You can actually (almost) reliably cross the street at the crosswalks now. You can't even do that on South Grand. I wish we had one on Grand. Just for that alone. I'd pay higher taxes for that. Honest. Gladly. Even if I never ever rode it. I just don't see what it's hurting. And I see some real tangible help, albeit sideways. And a lot of straight up good clean fun.
To be completely fair, it's quite possible that nostalgic trolleys are one of those things today's college kids just don't like. But . . . once it's up and running I don't really think that's going to be the case. And I REALLY don't think that will stay the case. Since today's college students are tomorrow's college parents, and I know good and well kids love trolleys. (And trains.) Pretty much all of them. Never yet met one that didn't. Toy trains have been a staple now for a solid couple of centuries. In every style and at every price point.
But why is the trolley a distraction? What's it distracting anyone from? I don't even really see how it's cut back on street traffic noticeably. On a sunny summer Saturday afternoon that place is still as hopping as it ever was. And on a rainy weekday it's maybe kind of quiet. College kids are perhaps less apt to walk from their dorm or apartment on a cold rainy day when they have class and more so on a sunny day when they don't. (It would certainly describe me well enough, anyway.) And today's college students like fast food and chain restaurants a lot less than I did. (Though I have to say, the McDonald's at UMC was always hopping. And I dearly miss it, as it was a nice hangout for a couple decades of my life. A McDonald's. In a basement.) But to get back to the loop . . .
Yes, we could use better connectivity. We could use better transit. I don't see these two things as mutually exclusive. A bus can and does go down Delmar. We can, and I hope will, expand Metrolink, but probably shouldn't do it along Delmar anyway. (And even if we did, I can't imagine it would work as on street light rail through there.) Again, the trolley has given Delmar a very nice road diet. It's great. Built in. Everyone drives slower through there now. And maybe, just maybe, that won't go away. You can actually (almost) reliably cross the street at the crosswalks now. You can't even do that on South Grand. I wish we had one on Grand. Just for that alone. I'd pay higher taxes for that. Honest. Gladly. Even if I never ever rode it. I just don't see what it's hurting. And I see some real tangible help, albeit sideways. And a lot of straight up good clean fun.
To be completely fair, it's quite possible that nostalgic trolleys are one of those things today's college kids just don't like. But . . . once it's up and running I don't really think that's going to be the case. And I REALLY don't think that will stay the case. Since today's college students are tomorrow's college parents, and I know good and well kids love trolleys. (And trains.) Pretty much all of them. Never yet met one that didn't. Toy trains have been a staple now for a solid couple of centuries. In every style and at every price point.
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I can't help but think it would be advantageous to offer subsidized or free trolley rides to residents who live directly nearby trolley stops, particularly on the east end of Delmar and along DeBaliviere. Not only would it expedite development along the corridor but it would certainly bring more money to the loop than it would cost in lost fares.
It's a similar concept to free shipping. For example if two people are selling the exact same watch online, one for $46 with free shipping and one for $38 with a $5 shipping fee, the seller with free shipping will sell more watches even though it costs more.
With transit, the two dollars each direction will keep many local residents away from consistent trolley use and ultimately keep them from spending money in the loop. Whenever I visit the loop I always spend an order of magnitude more money than the $4 it would cost to ride.
As a future DeBaliviere Place resident I know I would ride the trolley to the loop to spend money multiple times a week if each ride didn't cost $2, but as of right now it's meh.
I would suggest offering a pass to nearby neighborhood residents either for free or for no more than $15-$20 per month. I know I would pay that much, and even at a reduced rate they would still get more revenue from me than if they stuck with the current fares. The current fare system is perfect for tourists who will only be in the area for a day but why not offer something that locals would actually use too?
It's a similar concept to free shipping. For example if two people are selling the exact same watch online, one for $46 with free shipping and one for $38 with a $5 shipping fee, the seller with free shipping will sell more watches even though it costs more.
With transit, the two dollars each direction will keep many local residents away from consistent trolley use and ultimately keep them from spending money in the loop. Whenever I visit the loop I always spend an order of magnitude more money than the $4 it would cost to ride.
As a future DeBaliviere Place resident I know I would ride the trolley to the loop to spend money multiple times a week if each ride didn't cost $2, but as of right now it's meh.
I would suggest offering a pass to nearby neighborhood residents either for free or for no more than $15-$20 per month. I know I would pay that much, and even at a reduced rate they would still get more revenue from me than if they stuck with the current fares. The current fare system is perfect for tourists who will only be in the area for a day but why not offer something that locals would actually use too?
Huh?GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Apr 05, 2018It's a similar concept to free shipping. For example if two people are selling the exact same watch online, one for $46 with free shipping and one for $38 with a $5 shipping fee, the seller with free shipping will sell more watches even though it costs more.
Very interesting points. Wouldn't locals already be the most likely to be using the trolley anyways? If you made the trolley free to outsiders, you provide visitors more of an incentive to visit delmar and the trolley. In theory bringing in first timers to the area.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Apr 05, 2018I can't help but think it would be advantageous to offer subsidized or free trolley rides to residents who live directly nearby trolley stops, particularly on the east end of Delmar and along DeBaliviere. Not only would it expedite development along the corridor but it would certainly bring more money to the loop than it would cost in lost fares.
It's a similar concept to free shipping. For example if two people are selling the exact same watch online, one for $46 with free shipping and one for $38 with a $5 shipping fee, the seller with free shipping will sell more watches even though it costs more.
With transit, the two dollars each direction will keep many local residents away from consistent trolley use and ultimately keep them from spending money in the loop. Whenever I visit the loop I always spend an order of magnitude more money than the $4 it would cost to ride.
As a future DeBaliviere Place resident I know I would ride the trolley to the loop to spend money multiple times a week if each ride didn't cost $2, but as of right now it's meh.
I would suggest offering a pass to nearby neighborhood residents either for free or for no more than $15-$20 per month. I know I would pay that much, and even at a reduced rate they would still get more revenue from me than if they stuck with the current fares. The current fare system is perfect for tourists who will only be in the area for a day but why not offer something that locals would actually use too?
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Consumers often consider the cost of shipping a "wasted" expense unless used for niche items. Learned about it in my retail marketing class at Mizzou. People are more likely to buy something more expensive with free shipping than cheaper with an additional shipping charge. I used to run an eBay store and the concept worked there as well, especially on competitive items.
Also my perspective is that the current fare system ($2 or $5 for all day pass) works perfectly for tourists because they will use the trolley for a day to get to the various destinations along the line. If I was a tourist I wouldn't hesitate to drop five bucks for each member of my family to have transportation along the loop and to Forest Park for a whole day.
As a resident though I would like to be able to justify using the trolley for everyday trips for everything from coffee to groceries, but if I had to spend $4 every time just to get to the loop, those trips would be far less common. Even a highly subsidized $15 monthly pass would give the trolley more revenue from me personally than with the current fare system. I could see a lot of people in the neighborhood having the same mentality.
Also my perspective is that the current fare system ($2 or $5 for all day pass) works perfectly for tourists because they will use the trolley for a day to get to the various destinations along the line. If I was a tourist I wouldn't hesitate to drop five bucks for each member of my family to have transportation along the loop and to Forest Park for a whole day.
As a resident though I would like to be able to justify using the trolley for everyday trips for everything from coffee to groceries, but if I had to spend $4 every time just to get to the loop, those trips would be far less common. Even a highly subsidized $15 monthly pass would give the trolley more revenue from me personally than with the current fare system. I could see a lot of people in the neighborhood having the same mentality.
Was hoping they would have it open by MDW to draw interest and ridership from the holiday weekend.
Even with school out, this time of year has so much Loop and Forest Park foot traffic that this is the time to have it up and running - even at a reduced schedule.
Even with school out, this time of year has so much Loop and Forest Park foot traffic that this is the time to have it up and running - even at a reduced schedule.
Looking through some old posts. A funny one (in a tragic way) from summer 2010. What a long strange trip it's been.
quincunx wrote: ↑Jul 15, 2010Groundbreaking is expected in late 2011, and the trolleys will be rolling by fall 2012, said Joe Edwards ...
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