My take....If we are getting money from the Feds, why not take it!? If not, it will go to some other community in Nowhere North Dakota. Why not utilize it here and be greedy. It may not be a necessity, but I would love to see it happen. It may open minds to the possibility of street level Metro lines, the proposed North-South line. I see no negative to this. Why not grab our piece of the pie!?
Looks like the Loop Trolley is getting ~$25M in Feed money. I think that's about half of what's needed.
Project: St. Louis Loop Trolley Project (Urban Circulator)
Sponsor: City of St. Louis
Amount: $24,990,000
The City of St. Louis will build a two-mile, nine-stop urban streetcar route. This catalyst project would connect a neighborhood in need of revitalization with a thriving college village and a major regional destination. The circulator route would connect University City, Forest Park and the City of St. Louis together and tie into an existing light rail line. A mix of public and private investment is envisioned.
link: http://www.fta.dot.gov/news/news_events_11820.html
Sponsor: City of St. Louis
Amount: $24,990,000
The City of St. Louis will build a two-mile, nine-stop urban streetcar route. This catalyst project would connect a neighborhood in need of revitalization with a thriving college village and a major regional destination. The circulator route would connect University City, Forest Park and the City of St. Louis together and tie into an existing light rail line. A mix of public and private investment is envisioned.
link: http://www.fta.dot.gov/news/news_events_11820.html
This funding is part of a larger $293 million allocation by the FTA. They awarded $25 million to several different cities that applied for their Urban Circulator programs. I think the biggest news is that we were chosen out of 281 applications from 31 different states, totaling over $2 billion in funding requests!
Read more here: http://www.fta.dot.gov/news/news_events_11823.html
Read more here: http://www.fta.dot.gov/news/news_events_11823.html
Thanks for the links. I was listening to KMOX when Joe Edwards was on. So where might the rest of the money come from?
- 3,758
^ Good question...and how long will it take to raise the rest of the money. Hopefully not too long. I love this project and hope it opens people's eyes to the feasibility of street level light rail as well. Great news!
Tiger Grant II? It would be interesting to see if East West Gateway will pick an application that incorporates the Loop Trolley now that a significant funding source has been established. Specically, can picture a TIGER app incorporating the Vincent Greenway and Metrolink TOD as discussed by Daron on another thread.
Who is operating this trolley and where is that money going to come from? Things don't seem any clearer on this than when I looked at this a year ago.
That $25 million could've gone to enhance the existing transit infrastructure that this is already duplicating.
That $25 million could've gone to enhance the existing transit infrastructure that this is already duplicating.
- 712
Can somebody explain again how phase II of this would eventually replace the Forest Park Shuttle? I've never seen a concrete plan, and the roads around Forest Park meander a bit aimlessly.
Regarding operators, as discussed before, I hope whatever system they use is fully compatible with Metro's payment system and transfers to the metrolink are easy.
When are the Tiger II grants announced?
Regarding operators, as discussed before, I hope whatever system they use is fully compatible with Metro's payment system and transfers to the metrolink are easy.
When are the Tiger II grants announced?
^Regarding the above mentioned expansion into Forest Park, I'm not sure where that idea is coming from, but I've certainly heard it from a few people.
Why not just expand the Zooline Railroad in such a case. It'd probably be cheaper
Why not just expand the Zooline Railroad in such a case. It'd probably be cheaper
- 11K
There are a millions of park visitors each year, a loop within the park taking in the main attractions may see more users than the Loop portion!
I think a lot of people bring up expanding with a loop around Forest Park to reach all the attractions comes up because it's the obvious next step for this. However I don't think any of the officials have mentioned this. Just getting the first bit has been/will be a huge accomplishment. The Zoo railroad is completely incompatible with the trolley.
i would think the trolleys should stop at a single place in forest park where you could then transfer to a zooline-railroad-type train. Trolleys may be cool for streets, but in a park? i think another one of those brightly colored, open air, little train lines would be a lot classier/unique.
- 712
^Lots of theme parks use their little trains to get people from their abyss-like parking lots into the park. As the zoo is free and has no real need of toll gates, there's no reason why the railroad couldn't exit the zoo through big doors that could be closed over the tracks at night. It would be completely sensible for the zooline railroad to extend to the whole park, way more than the trolley. Unless you want to take the trolley down hampton...
It could be done in a series of phases. Phase one, pick any of the big roundabouts and connect to it.
What sort of track gauge does the zooline railroad use? If it's narrow, would it fit within the trolley tracks around the history museum? It could probably run parallel too.
No overhead wires to add to the installation cost.
It could be done in a series of phases. Phase one, pick any of the big roundabouts and connect to it.
What sort of track gauge does the zooline railroad use? If it's narrow, would it fit within the trolley tracks around the history museum? It could probably run parallel too.
No overhead wires to add to the installation cost.
- 82
The zoo train is pretty dinky. I'm not sure what gauge it is... a larger train might fit. But I can't imagine the current trains running all the way out of the zoo to the other Forest Park attractions like the Science Center, Art Museum, and History Museum.
The zoo trains are basically big toys. Not remotely compatible with real trolleys.
- 712
Would they offer a scenic and enjoyable experience? Would they be cheaper to expand around Forest Park than the Loop Trolley?
yes and yes
Could they get you from the history museum to the science center?
Yes, eventually.
Should they exit the park?
No. Turtle Park, maybe. Tower Grove Park, no.
yes and yes
Could they get you from the history museum to the science center?
Yes, eventually.
Should they exit the park?
No. Turtle Park, maybe. Tower Grove Park, no.
I'm not really sure that the zooline railroad would be superior to a streetcar line. To build the zooline railroad out of the zoo they would have to rip up a great deal of vegetation for it while a streetcar, hence the name could run in the street. Not to mention that unlike an electric streetcar it's steam engine would produce a lot of noise, thus making it more difficult to find a quiet place in the park, which is much of it's purpose.
- 712
I figured it'd run on the road with the cars actually. The slower the better. I'm making a distinction between roads in the park and roads outside the park.
The main point is that some sort of amusement park tram might be more suitable to Forest Park than a trolley. It's up to Forest Park Forever. The Forest Park Shuttle is subsidized by them, isn't it?
Has any kind of timeline been given for the Loop Trolley construction? How long would it take? Would it go in phases?
The main point is that some sort of amusement park tram might be more suitable to Forest Park than a trolley. It's up to Forest Park Forever. The Forest Park Shuttle is subsidized by them, isn't it?
Has any kind of timeline been given for the Loop Trolley construction? How long would it take? Would it go in phases?
Groundbreaking is expected in late 2011, and the trolleys will be rolling by fall 2012, said Joe Edwards ...
I suppose that indicates he's confident that the rest of the money will come forth soon.
STLToday article
- 8,907
Are you guys really serious about suggesting that toy trains would be a better alternative than a street car? The zoo train is fun for the novelty of it, but it's TINY and open to the elements.
I'm fine with the vintage streetcar idea, holding my breath for modern streetcars in the metro someday.
I'm fine with the vintage streetcar idea, holding my breath for modern streetcars in the metro someday.
- 667
I like the idea of using historical streetcars for the heritage aspect of it. The loop trolley is more for tourists than locals to use. However, if it can expand beyond that, then I am all for it. Modern streetcars would be nicer to ride than those Gillig buses that Metro so likes to run.
In Dallas they got the McKinney Avenue Trolley, which uses restored trolleys and its free to ride.
http://www.mata.org/
Kenosha has some ex-TTC streetcars running around the lakefront, which is part of their lakefront redevelopment and transit oriented plan.
These are two I listed are novelties, but I've seen tourists and locals use them, either to go places or just ride for fun.
In Dallas they got the McKinney Avenue Trolley, which uses restored trolleys and its free to ride.
http://www.mata.org/
Kenosha has some ex-TTC streetcars running around the lakefront, which is part of their lakefront redevelopment and transit oriented plan.
These are two I listed are novelties, but I've seen tourists and locals use them, either to go places or just ride for fun.
When it comes to possible future expansion of streetcars in St. Louis, I'm most concerned about the single tracking on Delmar between DeBaliviere and the MetroLink; though at only 1/2 mile, it shouldn't be too much concern.
And after some thought, I agree with Moorlander: I don't think a ZLRR type train through Forest Park would be a good idea, especially considering the distance between some of the park's attractions. I cringe at the thought of the train trudging up the hill to the art museum at 3-4 mph... in the rain (and forget winter).
And after some thought, I agree with Moorlander: I don't think a ZLRR type train through Forest Park would be a good idea, especially considering the distance between some of the park's attractions. I cringe at the thought of the train trudging up the hill to the art museum at 3-4 mph... in the rain (and forget winter).