urbanSTL

Hey. So KCI’s current fees are about $6-7 per passenger while I believe STL’s are $18. While KCI’s landing fees will Increase, the current debt will be payed off by the time the new terminal is finished. Overall, the max landing fees are projected to be is $9 total.

Yes many of us KC folk have hailed the end of SW in STL, but this is mainly a joke off of a common dislike of St. Louis. Definently overblown. My hope is that Each kinda serves a different purpose.

The New KCI Terminal are being designed and built with strong airline support as you know. Southwest and the Airlines arent building and paying for a Terminal with double our currently used capacity for nothing . Yes, they are going to expand here. A direct flight to Europe is probably the next big thing as well already have more than enough demand. Just like any other private projects, cost over runs are payed for by the private companies building the project. Due to it being private, I expect a lot less over runs.

Justin Meyer is a great guy. Him talking about MCI’s failings did a lot to awaken the city to the fact that our airport was and would continue to fail us. 11/10 great guy. People here didn’t and still don’t realize how bad our airport truly is. His posts may be “wierd” but it showed how KCI wasn’t as amazing as Kansas Citians made it out to be.

I don’t really know a whole ton about the workings and plans of STL’s airport as I’m new to this, so please post like a run down of what’s happening and or expansion plans. Why is the thing that connects the main terminal and SwA terminals in STL? Seems like a long walk? Why is STL so narrow? It’s been way too narrow everytime I’ve visited. Is there much if any airline expansion at STL besides SWA?

If you want to know anything about our new terminal or the like just hmu. I’m pretty knoweldgable due to my involvement in the campaign,

ldai_phs wrote:Hey. So KCI’s current fees are about $6-7 per passenger while I believe STL’s are $18. While KCI’s landing fees will Increase, the current debt will be payed off by the time the new terminal is finished. Overall, the max landing fees are projected to be is $9 total.

Yes many of us KC folk have hailed the end of SW in STL, but this is mainly a joke off of a common dislike of St. Louis. Definently overblown. My hope is that Each kinda serves a different purpose.

The New KCI Terminal are being designed and built with strong airline support as you know. Southwest and the Airlines arent building and paying for a Terminal with double our currently used capacity for nothing . Yes, they are going to expand here. A direct flight to Europe is probably the next big thing as well already have more than enough demand. Just like any other private projects, cost over runs are payed for by the private companies building the project. Due to it being private, I expect a lot less over runs.

Justin Meyer is a great guy. Him talking about MCI’s failings did a lot to awaken the city to the fact that our airport was and would continue to fail us. 11/10 great guy. People here didn’t and still don’t realize how bad our airport truly is. His posts may be “wierd” but it showed how KCI wasn’t as amazing as Kansas Citians made it out to be.

I don’t really know a whole ton about the workings and plans of STL’s airport as I’m new to this, so please post like a run down of what’s happening and or expansion plans. Why is the thing that connects the main terminal and SwA terminals in STL? Seems like a long walk? Why is STL so narrow? It’s been way too narrow everytime I’ve visited. Is there much if any airline expansion at STL besides SWA?

If you want to know anything about our new terminal or the like just hmu. I’m pretty knoweldgable due to my involvement in the campaign,

Hi, welcome to UrbanSTL. Many points to cover-

STL’s fees are $11, and are declining. MCI will likely see a very large increase.

Firstly, Southwest has never committed to expansion at MCI. This is a myth. The new airport is supported by the airline so it “can better serve its customers”. Gary Kelly was asked I️ believe by the KC Star if Southwest would expand with a new terminal. He said “if the market is there.” That’s as good as a no, given the sluggish travel market out of MCI currently.
Also, MCI is not doubling its capacity. It’s shrinking. I️ believe you will be going from around 45 gates currently to around 35. That’s a decrease. The new terminal will also be smaller than many peer airports.
So regretfully, any assumption that SW will suddenly rapidly expand out of MCI is wildly misplaced. Many persons in the KC media have unfortunately hailed the new terminal as a solution to MCI’s litany of problems. It will solve most, but increased air service is not guaranteed. In fact, airlines are cutting frequencies and routes out of MCI currently. These cuts are not due to the facility. It is a reflection of the market. Justin Meyer has indicated this numerous times. Also regarding trans Atlantic services, Kansas City is very disadvantaged. The airport has minimal funds available to incentivize flights. It also sits just beyond the reach of A321 air craft. An MCI TATL Route would have to be on a 788. As far as posters on this forum are aware, Kansas City is not high on the list to receive TATL. Not to mention, KC has very weak European business ties that could probably not support a route.

STL’s Terminal structuring is built for efficiency. It was built to accommodate the TWA hub and high passenger numbers. The airport has undergone extensive renovations that have made it a very nice facility.

Brief summary on things happening at STL-

-STL is currently 5.7% in the green for passenger numbers this year. The tremendous passenger growth out of STL is attributed to Southwests focus city.
-Southwest is continuing to expand in STL. With direct access to both customs gates, STL is poised to grow as an INTL gateway for Southwest. The airline also has expanded farther up Concourse D, and invested millions into their STL facilities. STL has also become a “test market” for many SWA trials, including an upcoming mobile app. They are currently exploring additional expansion.
-STL landed transatlantic service on WOW Air this summer. The airport is in hot pursuit of British Airways and Condor.
-Frontier, Delta and other airlines have increased frequencies out of STL.
-Several new retail offerings are under construction in terminal 2, including a lounge.

Just in closing,
Please keep in mind that this is a -St Louis- forum. If any of us have comments or concerns about your new terminal, we will go to airliners.net or Reddit Kansas City. Unless you’ll be contributing to an STL based conversation, refrain from any STL bashing or trolling.



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Hey. No attempt to bash STL. Have just traveled their recently so came here with some questions. Then saw what was being said about KCI so I wanted to put in what I know since I’m involved with it. KCRAG is best for KC related questions.

Yes we are loosing Gates, but only 27 are currently used. New Terminal has 35. Yes no flights are officially promised. And I don’t think any expentially growth is likely. But growth will happen.

What I know from my connections.
-KC TATL is much much closer to happening than many believe
-Spirit and SWA look to be the most interested in the new Terminal and or growth here.
-the stuff I said early about a only slight KCI Fee Increase

I really like how STL has a pull through drop off. I’ve never really used it with luggage though. What’s the general thought on that set up?

Do you see SWA as using STL to take pressure off of Midway?

ldai_phs wrote:
Yes many of us KC folk have hailed the end of SW in STL, but this is mainly a joke off of a common dislike of St. Louis.

Can you explain this? Inferiority complex or what?

I was referring to fellow Kansas citians, not myself personally.
I'd generally say its more of a perception thing. I think the mass dislike of STL is based on the perception that STL is stuck up.
again, not trying to bash STL but just sharing what goes on here.

You get stuck people from all cities around the globe.
St.Louis isn't any more of that than any other city you visit in fact St.Louis is of few cities in the country that always constantly bashed repeatedly so people here really don't have time to focus our attention on KC or any other city when we're constantly fighting our own battles.

Lets just keep the focus on St.Louis Lambert Airport and on how it will continue to grow and thrive.

By the way congrats to KC for approving construction of a new airport.

ldai_phs wrote: ↑

Nov 09, 2017

Hey. No attempt to bash STL. Have just traveled their recently so came here with some questions. Then saw what was being said about KCI so I wanted to put in what I know since I’m involved with it. KCRAG is best for KC related questions.

Yes we are loosing Gates, but only 27 are currently used. New Terminal has 35. Yes no flights are officially promised. And I don’t think any expentially growth is likely. But growth will happen.

What I know from my connections.
-KC TATL is much much closer to happening than many believe
-Spirit and SWA look to be the most interested in the new Terminal and or growth here.
-the stuff I said early about a only slight KCI Fee Increase

I really like how STL has a pull through drop off. I’ve never really used it with luggage though. What’s the general thought on that set up?

Do you see SWA as using STL to take pressure off of Midway?

Hey! Thanks for stopping in here.

To answer a few questions. And add a few comments.

The setup is pretty good in T2. Short walk from drop off to the ticket counter to security. Things are getting a little congested now though. If many more flights get added they are going to have to address things and maybe expand the landslide area of the terminal. The curbside drop off is nice but I never use it. It seems to always have people in line using it though. Airside it is getting a lot better. The new amenities will help a lot. T2 isn't how I would design a terminal (and I think others would agree) but its good enough for what we need. They have improved it a lot recently in my opinion.

STL is being used to take pressure off Midway. Des Moines and Little Rock flights were switched to STL to help with that. I am also of the understanding that a fair amount of people were flying DSM-MDW-STL anyways, so it made sense to switch it. STL has a handful of destinations now that don't go through midway anymore and are all routed through here.

Not to get too far off the STL topic but I could see some airline expansion at MCI once it is done. Spirit makes sense. I also am of the understanding there may be less gates but they will be able to be used more efficiently once they have adequate room for people to wait for flights. Anyways, I am happy for you guys. Your current setup is not good. Maybe I will connect through there sometime when it is done and check it out.

I don't really think it is going to impact STL much so I don't really know why people seem to make it a contest. Each airport can do its own thing and get along fine. I also don't get the KC hate for STL and didn't even know it existed until I had some friends go to mizzou and meet KC people. It seems really odd that KC even cares much about STL, but to each their own.

If KC people (not you) happen think they are going to turn into some huge hub and steal all our flights, they can think that, the more power to them. I have better things to do than argue with them. I am going to focus on making STL better and promoting it, because that is a better use of time.

If you have any other STL questions feel free to ask or PM me. I always love talking airports!

jshank83 wrote: ↑

Nov 09, 2017

This was posted by someone in another forum.

No wonder Southwest likes it here. STL is the highest yield on O&D for Southwest in this list of other medium sized airports. It mostly just has other airports in the midwest/south/east. I think he is going to add in more later.

Wow. Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Even for some of the legacy carriers were are in the top 5 or 10.

Meeting minutes for September and October have been uploaded. Some notes

September
https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... inutes.pdf

Airport incentive program. 1.6 mil a year for the next 3 years. 4.8 mil total
Capital project improments were approved. This looks like it will be for redoing taxiways/roadss and getting new equipment. Should go towards opening more of C concourse also.
Free Wifi goes to an hour

97% of the 7.2% increase in passengers in July was connecting. I had no clue connecting was that much of our growth at this point. Still good to see O&D going up also though.

STL is the 4th fastest growing Soutwest station in terms of flights.

The new Starbucks and Common use clubs will open in November.

October
https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... inutes.pdf

Air Canada is going to take over A17 as its own gate. It had been a per turn gate. They will be moving the the jetbridge from A9 to A17 because they liked that jet bridge better. AC is paying for them to switch them. I am assuming they will move the one at A17 to A9 then, and just swap them?

^ That note that almost all growth i July was connecting was surprising. Since last year only around half was that. Then again. There wasn't much new this summer over previous summer, so it could be a reason. Would be interesting to see if the numbers of O&D demand lines up with that thought since that would imply not too much change overall between July 2016 and 2017 numbers

Isn't Air Canada getting their own gate have to do with them increasing frequency recently and them parking a plane overnight as a result?

Isn't the airport director's comments on new international service coming 12-18 months from now imply they already know it will happen? And that because its that far out its too early to announce since that's normaly announced about 9 months or so at most out for a number of reasons. Its also likely the upcoming C concourse work is tied to this.

imperialmog wrote: ↑

Nov 09, 2017

Isn't Air Canada getting their own gate have to do with them increasing frequency recently and them parking a plane overnight as a result?

I am sure they played in. Plus, United was already using A17 on a per turn basis once in awhile anyways, so now they won't have AC blocking one of their gates.

jshank83 wrote: ↑

Nov 09, 2017

97% of the 7.2% increase in passengers in July was connecting. I had no clue connecting was that much of our growth at this point. Still good to see O&D going up also though.

The connections are impressive. Even anecdotally. On my return trip from LGA on Monday I flew through BNA. First, I was really surprised at BNA. It's pleasant, save for the fact that it constantly sounds like a bad concert at some arena where I might once have worked. But it is darn weird to have AA and WN staring at each other across the concourse. I don't think I've ever noticed anything quite like that before. But more importantly, there were quite a lot of folks on the flight connecting in STL to fly to PHI. From BNA. (At least three near me on the plane.) That's . . . surprising. We are not precisely on the way for someone from PHI. Okay, there might be the odd exception (like me) that books a connecting flight just to see a new airport. But I find it hard to believe that many people would intentionally add three hours or so of flight time to a two hour trip if they didn't have to. And they made special announcements to connecting passengers (since our flight was an hour and a half late or so.) So . . . yes. We're getting more connections. That much seems increasingly clear. And STL seems obviously and visibly banked in a way that other stations don't. WN likes to turn planes around fast, so they don't stay at the gate long. For there to be a half dozen planes all right in a row at the same time . . . there's got to be a reason.

Anyway . . .

ldai_phs wrote: ↑

Nov 08, 2017

I don’t really know a whole ton about the workings and plans of STL’s airport as I’m new to this, so please post like a run down of what’s happening and or expansion plans. Why is the thing that connects the main terminal and SwA terminals in STL? Seems like a long walk? Why is STL so narrow? It’s been way too narrow everytime I’ve visited. Is there much if any airline expansion at STL besides SWA?

There isn't presently a connection between the two terminals. There was once, along the D concourse, but that's been closed about eight years now. To move from one terminal to the other you have to either walk outdoors or take Metrolink, which itself involves a long trek outdoors. On the other hand, there aren't many connections between legacy carriers and WN.

As to why the concourses are narrow . . . I've seen wider, I suppose, I places like Seoul and Hong Kong, but they're pretty much in keeping with the US average. It's probably just a factor of age. US terminals, and St. Louis in particular, are often quite a lot older than those elsewhere. The structure of the A, B, and C concourses dates at least partially to the airport's construction in the late fifties, though they've been altered and expanded repeatedly since. But for comparison, here's a few examples from my most recent trip:

Lambert:




The first image is the newer part of Terminal 2, the second is from a slightly older part of the terminal, above one of the customs halls. (The one that's presently open.) That second area is fairly consistent with all of the concourses. And it's a little closed off right now, thanks to the temporary walls for the construction of the Starbucks on the left and the new Wingtips Lounge on the right.

For comparison, here's concourse A at Midway, which seems about dead average to me:


And here's concourse B in terminal B at LaGuardia, which is genuinely a bit tight:


LaGuardia isn't a fair comparison, as that really is quite old and tight and everyone complains about it. (Though I enjoyed it anyway, largely on account of the plane spotting.) And of course, the new terminal is already under construction. (To open in six or eight years. Feel better KC. Your new terminal may go from pipe dream to done before the new LaGuardia opens.)

But I'd say we're otherwise within normal constraints. San Francisco is wider. O'Hare is taller. Atalanta is probably about the same. Essentially, there's room for a spacious aisle and either hold areas or ancillary spaces, and with the way gates break down these days it seems like that works out about ideally. The only thing lacking is a food court, and there's a small one at the entrance to C. That or giant duty free stores for Swarovski crystals or designer luggage that doesn't fit in an overhead bin or perfume you can't carry through a checkpoint. Which the airlines would be happy to sell you aboard their planes anyway, so I doubt much they care one way or the other.

Passengers like those sorts of things, of course. But for the most part I think we like cheap tickets even more.

(Mind you, I did enjoy the airside culture museum in Seoul-Incheon.)

^ Thanks for the pics,

I was living in Chicago area and was constantly travelling for work when old midway terminal was torn down and new Midway & garage was built. I actually enjoyed seeing how the construction played out even though the 5-10 minutes to get dropped off, check in, go through security and be your at the gate went away. I swear a few times that I arrived half hour before my flight and still had to time to get coffee before boarding

It will be interesting to see how LaGuardia works out as I generally avoided it all together the last couple years. Instead flying in and out of JFK as most of work took me on Long Island. My most recent LaGuardia was a pain curbside as the old signage was up but shuttles were relocated for construction.

I still believe Lambert needs a vision to redo curbside, ability to increase in short term parking (money maker) or even a onsite/terminal hotel. At some point the realization is that with Concourse B, Concourse C still not full utilized and partial of D it still has way too many gates then it will ever utilized and a lot of dead tarmac space. Of course, I advocate a new T1 linear concourse, one security/customs area, one metrolink stop is a realistic, cost effective way to go forward in the future. The huge advantage is Lambert can essentially do whatever it wants in the future without disrupting plane side.

The problem at Lambert is that the resources are there, but they're not in the places they need to be. Terminal 2 is a bit overcrowded. The T2 garage is overcrowded. The T1 garage has a whole level out of service, simply roped off. Shift things around and, whammo, you have what you need. The problem is that Southwest probably needs to move to C and American to E. That creates customs problems, but maybe they're not irredeemable. Alternately, create better connectivity between the two terminals so that parking in the wrong garage isn't such a big deal. Reintroduce the free hop between 1 and 2 on Metrolink. Make the connection between Metrolink and 2 less cruddy. But honestly, in the grand scheme of things, simply fixing the prices on parking will probably solve most complaints. And convincing more people to ride the train.

^ Definitely, with AA dehubbing and Southwest expanding it makes sense to make some swaps but not sure all the complexities involved with that move, agreements, so forth not to mention the latest T2/E concourse improvements would probably make it less appealing to Southwest to move but who knows.

Metrolink frequency doesn't come anywhere close to automated people mover at any other airport and the cheaper then cheap construction of T2 metrolink station as you noted makes a long walk through D more appealing then any free hops which are probably taken anyways. At same time, not enough people move between the two terminals to justify cost for anything other then opening/heating D for a walkway without the moving walkways.

Parking is in tough spot, raise to high and now you will most likely convince drivers to use a private off site lots instead of metrolink. But the bigger issue is concessions including parking is big chunk of Lambert's revenues if I read the 2016 final budget right. I think parking represented something like +$20 million out of +$160 million in FY16 airport revenues. Convincing people to park at the airport is more important then ever as it pertains to business plan. However, just not sure their is any means to consistently and frequently move people from underutilized T1 garage to T2 that costs less then what would be gained in revenues. People are going to expect frequent service. The metrolink free hop is a non starter and constant shuttle bus services are expensive endeavors.

dredger wrote: ↑

Nov 11, 2017

The metrolink free hop is a non starter and constant shuttle bus services are expensive endeavors.

Aren't they already doing these two things? Last I checked (maybe it changed) they run a terminal shuttle between the two and they metrolink is free between the two.

This summer my wife & I took a flight to Europe using a travel company that only offered the flight from Chicago. So we flew to Chicago on SW Airlines and had to get over to Ohare from Midway. I heard they used to have shuttles but the info booth recommended using a taxi. That ended up costing $100, on a Saturday.

When we came back, we took the trains back to Midway for $10.

So getting from our Terminal 2 to Terminal 1 is a dream by comparison.


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At the Cancun event a guy spoke who was the Vice President of something for Southwest. He said we will be up to 120 departures in summer but I have only counted 115. Not sure if that means more announcements are coming still?

Trololzilla wrote: ↑

Nov 11, 2017

Also noticed the flight number of the inaugural Cancun flight was SW1985, which seemed a rather nice tribute to highlight Southwest's 32 years of service to STL (and its first international from here)

They made a point of saying that today. I figured 1985 meant something but I didn't realize it was the first year.

Looking on SW Corporate Facts Sheet (Not sure how up to date that is)

120 Daily @ ATL is 18 Gates
123 Daily @ OAK is 15 Gates
128 Daily @ LAX is 15 Gates

Probably more depends on bank sizes than daily departures but we are aligned right on par with 120 Daily departures and 15 Full time Gates.

I was down by 34/36/38 late last week, and with 2 closely timed departures it honestly gets a little tight in the gate area. I'm wondering if realistically 36 could be used as a full time gate along side 34/36/38.

If I'm remembering correctly Summer of '16 is when we finally broke 100 Daily departures, 20 additional in 2 years is fairly good growth. If that trend continues could defiantly signify needing another section of D in the next 2 years.