urbanSTL

imperialmog wrote: ↑

Oct 30, 2017

Also the drawing and mention of work starting past C24, guessing this is likely space needed for airlines not currently here to come in?

I think that is the idea but I am not sure what the status on the renovations are, or if they have even started yet.

jshank83 wrote: AA pilot base in St. Louis closing in September 2018. With the MDs starting to be phased out I am not all that surprised.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ame ... ember-2018

JAL007 wrote: ↑

Oct 30, 2017

This really should have happened ages ago and just shows the lengths and expense the company has gone to cater to the ex-TWA employees. The S1113 (abrogation) process and CBA in 2012 allowed the closure to proceed, but I’m sure the litigious TWA types will be happy to cost the company a ton of money and enrich some legal counsel in the process.

Nothing operationally will change, as it is many of the trips begin as deadheads to MIA/ORD whereby the local crews get duty paid to fly as passengers and assume flying that the other bases rightly own.

Meanwhile the SLT (not a typo) F/A base will remain with 200 LAA crew members, over half are nAAtives and the balance are ex-TW. The lengthy transfer list into SLT will likely never get cleared and many of the employees will end their careers at a non-SLT base.

Again this is all operational and won’t have any direct implications for STL travelers, but may hinder mainline service recovery a bit as there won’t be local reserves. As it is so much of the flying has transitioned to regional and legacy US operated equipment which do not have a base or large operations at Lambert.

Okay, but from a STL jobs standpoint this is not good news, right? When I read this article on STL Today a few minutes ago my takeaway was that it sounded like those 180 pilots (relatively good paying jobs) will leave the STL area and move to a city where a pilot base is. Is that incorrect?

San Luis Native wrote: ↑

Oct 30, 2017

Okay, but from a STL jobs standpoint this is not good news, right? When I read this article on STL Today a few minutes ago my takeaway was that it sounded like those 180 pilots (relatively good paying jobs) will leave the STL area and move to a city where a pilot base is. Is that incorrect?

They could commute. It isn't uncommon for that to happen. Chicago, Dallas, and Charlotte aren't all that bad to commute to for them. Some might be close to retirement also, so they might just retire instead. Not that it is as good as being based here but I am of the understanding it isn't a huge deal. It probably depends on how long they have been here. Younger ones I would think would be more likely to move. Some of the pilots based here might have even commuted here from somewhere else.

My wife met someone who just moved here and her husband is based in Anchorage for Fedex. He commutes all the way there.

Someone else on here might know better.

San Luis Native wrote:

jshank83 wrote: AA pilot base in St. Louis closing in September 2018. With the MDs starting to be phased out I am not all that surprised.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ame ... ember-2018

JAL007 wrote: ↑

Oct 30, 2017

This really should have happened ages ago and just shows the lengths and expense the company has gone to cater to the ex-TWA employees. The S1113 (abrogation) process and CBA in 2012 allowed the closure to proceed, but I’m sure the litigious TWA types will be happy to cost the company a ton of money and enrich some legal counsel in the process.

Nothing operationally will change, as it is many of the trips begin as deadheads to MIA/ORD whereby the local crews get duty paid to fly as passengers and assume flying that the other bases rightly own.

Meanwhile the SLT (not a typo) F/A base will remain with 200 LAA crew members, over half are nAAtives and the balance are ex-TW. The lengthy transfer list into SLT will likely never get cleared and many of the employees will end their careers at a non-SLT base.

Again this is all operational and won’t have any direct implications for STL travelers, but may hinder mainline service recovery a bit as there won’t be local reserves. As it is so much of the flying has transitioned to regional and legacy US operated equipment which do not have a base or large operations at Lambert.

Okay, but from a STL jobs standpoint this is not good news, right? When I read this article on STL Today a few minutes ago my takeaway was that it sounded like those 180 pilots (relatively good paying jobs) will leave the STL area and move to a city where a pilot base is. Is that incorrect?

No, probably not. There are many flight attendants and pilots who live in St Louis that work for other airlines and commute. From my impressions, commuting is not a daunting task and most are paid to do it.

I also have heard that Southwest is looking to open an operating base in St Louis. This might move that forward if Southwest is pursuing an STL base.


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Where the jobs are based is all that’s changing. The only job cut is at most 1-2 management/admininstaive personnel that oversees the base and represents the company in any local union affairs.

The employees are NOT losing their jobs, they’ll be able to take their occupational seniority to any base and equipment type it can support.

And again, because of the draw down in flying many of the pairings from STL start as deadheads to ORD or MIA which is costly and there is no operational need to have a base at Lambert.

If the individual employees elect to commute they can still continue to live in the STL area, fly non-revenue and even access cockpit jump-seats. Commuting is widely accepted in the airline industry but it is unfortunate for many of these people who are far along in their airline careers and all things equal have endured a disproportionate number of bumps along the road. The company has closed other bases and other airlines have closed bases in other cities where the operational need no longer exists.

JAL007 wrote: ↑

Oct 30, 2017

Where the jobs are based is all that’s changing. The only job cut is at most 1-2 management/admininstaive personnel that oversees the base and represents the company in any local union affairs.

The employees are NOT losing their jobs, they’ll be able to take their occupational seniority to any base and equipment type it can support.

And again, because of the draw down in flying many of the pairings from STL start as deadheads to ORD or MIA which is costly and there is no operational need to have a base at Lambert.

If the individual employees elect to commute they can still continue to live in the STL area, fly non-revenue and even access cockpit jump-seats. Commuting is widely accepted in the airline industry but it is unfortunate for many of these people who are far along in their airline careers and all things equal have endured a disproportionate number of bumps along the road. The company has closed other bases and other airlines have closed bases in other cities where the operational need no longer exists.

Thanks for the explanation. Just to be clear, by "commute" you mean that the pilot living where there isn't a pilot base would first fly to a different location and then pilot a flight as opposed to piloting a flight directly from their native city, right?

Any idea roughly how many pilots in the commercial airline business do this? 10%? 25%? 50%?

I am curious to see if this will mean more RJs and less mainline to DFW/ORD after the MDs get phased out. They could up the frequency with RJs and keep the seat count similar.

San Luis Native wrote: ↑

Oct 30, 2017

JAL007 wrote: ↑

Oct 30, 2017

Where the jobs are based is all that’s changing. The only job cut is at most 1-2 management/admininstaive personnel that oversees the base and represents the company in any local union affairs.

The employees are NOT losing their jobs, they’ll be able to take their occupational seniority to any base and equipment type it can support.

And again, because of the draw down in flying many of the pairings from STL start as deadheads to ORD or MIA which is costly and there is no operational need to have a base at Lambert.

If the individual employees elect to commute they can still continue to live in the STL area, fly non-revenue and even access cockpit jump-seats. Commuting is widely accepted in the airline industry but it is unfortunate for many of these people who are far along in their airline careers and all things equal have endured a disproportionate number of bumps along the road. The company has closed other bases and other airlines have closed bases in other cities where the operational need no longer exists.

Thanks for the explanation. Just to be clear, by "commute" you mean that the pilot living where there isn't a pilot base would first fly to a different location and then pilot a flight as opposed to piloting a flight directly from their native city, right?

Any idea roughly how many pilots in the commercial airline business do this? 10%? 25%? 50%?

Commute means someone who electively lives in a city different from their base (city where all trip pairings stop and start, flight service/flight operations supervisor and management is located). It really depends and varies considerably. At one time nearly everyone for AA F/A STL (SLT) didn’t live in STL, this was back when the former TWA F/As got furloughed but the company still had a sizable operation to staff. There were involuntary transfers in reverse seniority from other bases including BOS, DCA, LAX, among others. Now SLT is all locals but mostly nAAtives not TWA.

Different carriers and bases are different. At different times the trip pairings at one base may be popular and it attracts commuters, even people who live in another base city will commute for the desirable trips if their seniority allows. There’s lots of this for LAA LAX right now, for example.

Chalupas54 wrote: ↑

Oct 30, 2017

No, probably not. There are many flight attendants and pilots who live in St Louis that work for other airlines and commute. From my impressions, commuting is not a daunting task and most are paid to do it.

Pilots and flight attendants are NOT paid to commute from where they live to their base city and this time does NOT count towards their duty hours..

They are paid to deadhead, which is when the airline tells them "you need to travel from your base to another city to start a trip". For example, a Chicago based flight attendant being told their next trip will start in Dallas. They are paid for this time AND it counts as duty hours towards their flight limits.

I also have heard that Southwest is looking to open an operating base in St Louis. This might move that forward if Southwest is pursuing an STL base.

This will have no impact on that decision.

gregl wrote: ↑

Oct 31, 2017

They are paid to deadhead, which is when the airline tells them "you need to travel from your base to another city to start a trip". For example, a Chicago based flight attendant being told their next trip will start in Dallas. They are paid for this time AND it counts as duty hours towards their flight limits.

I have been wondering what deadheading means! Thanks. Would an airline take into account where someone lives vs their base. Lets say someone lives in Austin and are based in Dallas. They need to deadhead someone in Austin, would they try to make it be a person living in Austin or do they not really care?

jshank83 wrote: ↑

Oct 31, 2017

I have been wondering what deadheading means! Thanks. Would an airline take into account where someone lives vs their base. Lets say someone lives in Austin and are based in Dallas. They need to deadhead someone in Austin, would they try to make it be a person living in Austin or do they not really care?

So, some background on flight attendant & pilot scheduling.... Rule 1: It's all about seniority.

Each month, an airline will build planned schedules to fulfill the scheduled flying the airline needs to do. Suppose an airline has 1000 FAs in a given base.. they may build 850 schedules which covers the flying the airline anticipates they will do for a given month out of that base.

The 1000 flight attendants then bid for which schedule they want. Some may want only 2 day trips (one overnight). Some may want to spend a layover in Honolulu. Some may want specific days off. FAs will typically bid for multiple schedules in case their highest choices are not available.

The flight attendant with the highest seniority gets the schedule they picked. #2 in seniority gets their highest pic not yet chosen, etc. If some schedules are not automatically matched based on bid preferences, they are assigned to the remaining FAs in descending seniority order.

So now 850 schedules are assigned... what about the other 150 FAs? They are assigned to "reserve" which means they are on-call during the month to cover delays which result in FAs who exceed flight time limits, FAs who misconnect due to a delayed flight or things like sick time.

Now, airlines loathe to build schedules which involve deadheading. Why? The FAs are paid during the time they are deadheading... and the time counts as duty times, which reduces the rest of the time they can fly. Apparently, STL has so few pilot schedules that American regularly has to build deadheads into monthly schedules. In this case, the pilot or flight attendant who gets the schedule which includes deadheading is all based on seniority -- some may want it because they get paid to fly somewhere (possibly in First Class, depending on the contract). Others may hate it. Some may get stuck with it because of their seniority.

The other case for deadheading is based on Irregular Operations (IRROPS) -- perhaps a bad storm hits DFW and there are no more reserve FAs / pilots based at DFW. The airline will then send reserve FAs from other bases to cover those flights. They will probably choose bases closest to the deadhead destination as it is closer, they can get there sooner and it takes less of their duty time.

There are probably other scenarios and considerations, but from a generic high-level idea this should give you an idea of how it works.

Greg

gregl wrote: ↑

Oct 31, 2017

There are probably other scenarios and considerations, but from a generic high-level idea this should give you an idea of how it works.

Greg

Thanks for that insight. I appreciate it. I had no clue that is how it worked.

Southwest schedule update for summer is tomorrow. Anyone have any predictions or hopes? I figure Charleston and Pensacola are back. I could see Jacksonville getting adding, even if it is only seasonally. I hope we get another international destination but I don't know if this would be the time to add one.

That seems to be the likely play. Some of it depends on if they will focus efforts elsewhere on this one like more California related ones. That would make it less likely to add here since the previous release that featured California involves here. Sounds like their Hawaii aspect won't be in this one so that isn't a part of any expansion this time.

Any changes to Cincinnati from Southwest is likely after the summer, and that would have a very high chance that involves here.

Any more international i doubt this time due to time of year. Not sure what the busy season from Mexico/Carribbean is from here.

Could see a surprise nobody saw coming, it could be the need of a smaller station to add capacity and at this point if they aren't already here they may add it if the capacity is needed to be added in same direction.

Could see frequency adds with PIT being a rather likely one. Also FLL normally was last year only 1x in summer. With the expansion they had there since summer and its getting more likely others may sniff that route, they could increase it.

Hopefully Thursday evening i can set up a timetable which will compare it to this past summer.

Looks like the concrete work on E33 is fixed. They started using it again today.

Nice!

New Southwest schedule is out. I don't see anything new compared to last last year besides carry overs like SJC, SMF, CUN. Charleston (daily) and Pensacola (Sat only) are back. Boston goes back to 4x daily like last summer. So there may be some frequency upgrades though. PIT isn't one of them.

I think we will be at 115 for Summer. I didn't check every frequency but I checked most of them that I thought might change. We were at 114 before this update. We added 1x CHS, BOS, DCA. Down a PHX and RSW. Changes are from the last update, not last summer. We were at 110 last summer.

We may be at 116 for Sundays. New Orleans has a 3rd departure that day.

Note: Southwest is shutting down their Flint location. We didn't have a nonstop but I wanted to make a note.

From last summer it seems like there is one more FLL this summer over last. This was one i suspected with what they have done there since this past summer and the possibility Spirit and/or JetBlue entering here and starting that.

Of note with CHS is they announced it as daily at the start this time, since this past summer they increased from weekends to daily only about 6 weeks out. So numbers on that flight have to take limited time to book for numbers on that this past summer.

Was thinking. i don't think they often add year round routes too much in summer thinking of past examples here. And note they seem to now add things (but never cut once booking is available) as time gets closer.

imperialmog wrote: ↑

Nov 02, 2017

From last summer it seems like there is one more FLL this summer over last. This was one i suspected with what they have done there since this past summer and the possibility Spirit and/or JetBlue entering here and starting that.

Of note with CHS is they announced it as daily at the start this time, since this past summer they increased from weekends to daily only about 6 weeks out. So numbers on that flight have to take limited time to book for numbers on that this past summer.

Was thinking. i don't think they often add year round routes too much in summer thinking of past examples here. And note they seem to now add things (but never cut once booking is available) as time gets closer.

I think you are correct about FLL. I think the 4 of 5 increase from last summer are SMF, SJC, FLL, and MKE. I am not sure on the 5th. I am pretty sure CLE/SAN were already at 2 this past summer. My 110 number already included CHS.

jshank83 wrote: ↑

Nov 01, 2017

Winner of local concept restaurant announced.

Three Kings Public House

Opens late spring by E33. Rendering included.

https://www.flystl.com/newsroom/stl-new ... terminal-2

The E29-33 gate area will be filled in nicely. Three Kings, Starbucks, Wing Tips Club. Now I am curious to see what/if anything they have planned for E34-40 area.

That's great, was hoping it'd be Three Kings. I'd still really like to see a Kaldi's in T2 instead of, or in addition to, Starbucks.