The State of Downtown

kinger · PostSep 06, 2017#18012017-09-06T18:47+00:00

dylank wrote: ↑
Sep 06, 2017
Is it possible for a developer to tackle the first floors of Chemical? Even if they didn't take on the whole project, that corner space is prime for retail. Brighten the corner. Pour new concrete, add flower pots, bike racks...Then maybe the renovation on upper floors would become more attractive.

It's not feasible. The asking price for the building is above market already-- so buying it and only developing 1/5 of it only puts you further in the red. A fairly standard incentive package of tax abatement + Fed/State HTCs hasn't been enough to make it profitable when we've proforma'd it (hence why it's been under, and fallen back out of, contract multiple times). With the MOHTC in jeopardy (and FY17 and FY18 already at the cap), it's worth noting that even if the building were free you couldn't make the numbers work without incentives.

So let's hope the MO HTC isn't axed next session, that the sellers get reasonable with the price, and that a capable developer rolls the dice on it.

STLrainbow · PostSep 06, 2017#18022017-09-06T18:55+00:00

^ just an update.... The Chemical sold just last week; I think to the group that was reported to be looking at it earlier this year for residential w ground floor retail iirc,

framer · PostOct 18, 2017#18032017-10-18T18:30+00:00

Thompson Coburn renewed their lease Downtown for another ten years:

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... de64d.html

San Luis Native · PostOct 18, 2017#18042017-10-18T18:40+00:00

^Cool. ...Anything ever happen with Brown and Crouppen's threats to leave downtown? ...Guessing not as their website still shows 211 N Broadway as their headquarters.

dbInSouthCity · PostOct 19, 2017#18052017-10-19T15:23+00:00

In the last decade i could guesstimate that Downtown Inc (via the CID) has spent about $27,000,000-33,000,000 and i dont know what they have to show for it...the entire org is awfully run and with a $3.5M a year budget you would think they can get some results.

aprice · PostOct 19, 2017#18062017-10-19T15:56+00:00

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017
In the last decade i could guesstimate that Downtown Inc (via the CID) has spent about $27,000,000-33,000,000 and i dont know what they have to show for it...the entire org is awfully run and with a $3.5M a year budget you would think they can get some results.

The single most accurate statement on this entire Forum.

wabash · PostOct 19, 2017#18072017-10-19T16:06+00:00

What kind of results are you looking for?

Seems like a lot of big and good developments have come to Downtown in the last decade: Blues Museum, Arch Grounds, Webster U./Arcade Building, City Garden, Gateway Transit Center, GenAm Building reactivation, OPOP Tower completion, Old Post Office Plaza redesign/restoration, Culinaria , Lumiere Casino, Ballpark Village, T-Rex, 1,000s of residents being added all come to mind among many other developments/investments.

dbInSouthCity · PostOct 19, 2017#18082017-10-19T16:11+00:00

wabash wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017
What kind of results are you looking for?

Seems like a lot of big and good developments have come to Downtown in the last decade: Blues Museum, Arch Grounds, Webster U./Arcade Building, City Garden, Gateway Transit Center, GenAm Building reactivation, OPOP Tower completion, Old Post Office Plaza redesign/restoration, Culinaria , Lumiere Casino, Ballpark Village, T-Rex, 1,000s of residents being added all come to mind among many other developments/investments.

i spend a lot of time walking around downtown lately, there are times when i just run into homeless walking around for an hour. Its been bleeding jobs for a decade now and no signs of stopping.

olvidarte · PostOct 19, 2017#18092017-10-19T17:14+00:00

dbInSouthCity wrote:
wabash wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017
What kind of results are you looking for?

Seems like a lot of big and good developments have come to Downtown in the last decade: Blues Museum, Arch Grounds, Webster U./Arcade Building, City Garden, Gateway Transit Center, GenAm Building reactivation, OPOP Tower completion, Old Post Office Plaza redesign/restoration, Culinaria , Lumiere Casino, Ballpark Village, T-Rex, 1,000s of residents being added all come to mind among many other developments/investments.

i spend a lot of time walking around downtown lately, there are times when i just run into homeless walking around for an hour. Its been bleeding jobs for a decade now and no signs of stopping.

I agree, with such an impressive list of completed projects, you'd think downtown would feel more alive, but it doesn't. I've been down here for over 10 years and over the past few years downtown has started to feel...well, dead.

Walk the streets anytime before or after lunch or rush hour on most days...ghost town. I can walk from 4th street to the central library and not encounter more than 1 or 2 people.

It seriously looks like a war zone in DT with a ton of streets torn up with seemingly no coordination between city and contractors, inconsistent and unwelcoming pedestrian experience, etc. Downtown as a whole just isn't a pleasant experience.

I love downtown, but with all the development and money that I read about being poured into it, I see very little to show for it. Downtown mirrors the city as a whole with patches of activity that never seem to connect to form a continuous stretch of non-decay.

wabash · PostOct 19, 2017#18102017-10-19T17:20+00:00

I hear you - especially concerning Downtown West. But I don't think that means Downtown Inc has nothing to show for their efforts and expenditures over the last decade.

While jobs are still a weak point, there have been some wins as I pointed out. Another one that comes to mind, bringing jobs and general activity to DT is SLU Law. Downtown Inc's involvement in any/all of those is variable and debatable. But there have been a lot of steps forward along with other steps back (notably some employers pulling stakes or decreasing headcount)

STLrainbow · PostOct 19, 2017#18112017-10-19T17:37+00:00

olvidarte wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017
I agree, with such an impressive list of completed projects, you'd think downtown would feel more alive, but it doesn't. I've been down here for over 10 years and over the past few years downtown has started to feel...well, dead.

Right what bothers me is not so much all the subsidies given to those projects but the fact that there has been no cohesive plan that ties everything together and creates a pleasant environment where more companies and residents want to be by choice. I'm not sure if any major downtown is as lackluster as ours right now.

There are some positive things going on to build upon but I'm not sure what's underway will move the needle much on actual day-to-day vitality on the streets when completed. Until the jobs return at a faster pace and we get some better vision with streetscaping, etc. it'll be a slow go.

mo_opp · PostOct 19, 2017#18122017-10-19T17:44+00:00

^ What did Downtown Inc have to do with any of those projects getting done? Little if anything.

dbInSouthCity · PostOct 19, 2017#18132017-10-19T17:47+00:00

To Downtown Inc's credit, their clean team does keep downtown pretty clean but again idk if thats because of lack of activity downtown most of the time or their good work.

SouthCityJR · PostOct 19, 2017#18142017-10-19T17:55+00:00

I hate to say this as a native St. Louisan who loves this town, but is there any chance Downtown's lack of vibrancy despite all of the developments mentioned is due to the nature of St. Louisans themselves? Yes, I agree that Downtown is dead and lacking energy most of the time, but I've worked in downtown Clayton for years and can assure you Clayton is every bit as dead as Downtown when it comes to measuring vibrancy. Exact same issues...you only see people out very briefly during lunch time. After dark, Pastaria is busy and so are some of the other restaurants but there isn't much activity on the streets. Overall similar problems to Downtown, despite Clayton having huge investments and massive growth in the number of office workers over the years. My point is that maybe more workers Downtown would help (surely can't hurt), but don't expect them to produce any miracles based on what I see in Clayton.

Is there a chance the real issue boils down to the culture of St. Louis? People here seem to want to drive to work, park in a garage, go to their office, then go home at 5:00 pm sharp. No hanging around a coffee shop outside the office at 10 a.m. or getting drinks after work. No going home then back to the area where you work for a late dinner (no late dinners at all actually...ever been to other cities and notice how restaurants are still busy at 9 p.m.?). We seem to hate hanging out where we work and prefer to hang out where we live...i.e. we are a town of neighborhoods. Go to other cities both smaller and larger than us and you do see people who like to hang out where they work, but not here. I'm not sure why StL is this way, but we are.

addxb2 · PostOct 19, 2017#18152017-10-19T18:02+00:00

Downtown Neighborhood Association and it’s leadership have done more for downtown than Downtown STL Inc.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

survivor147 · PostOct 19, 2017#18162017-10-19T18:16+00:00

SouthCityJR wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017
I hate to say this as a native St. Louisan who loves this town, but is there any chance Downtown's lack of vibrancy despite all of the developments mentioned is due to the nature of St. Louisans themselves? Yes, I agree that Downtown is dead and lacking energy most of the time, but I've worked in downtown Clayton for years and can assure you Clayton is every bit as dead as Downtown when it comes to measuring vibrancy. Exact same issues...you only see people out very briefly during lunch time. After dark, Pastaria is busy and so are some of the other restaurants but there isn't much activity on the streets. Overall similar problems to Downtown, despite Clayton having huge investments and massive growth in the number of office workers over the years. My point is that maybe more workers Downtown would help (surely can't hurt), but don't expect them to produce any miracles based on what I see in Clayton.

Is there a chance the real issue boils down to the culture of St. Louis? People here seem to want to drive to work, park in a garage, go to their office, then go home at 5:00 pm sharp. No hanging around a coffee shop outside the office at 10 a.m. or getting drinks after work. No going home then back to the area where you work for a late dinner (no late dinners at all actually...ever been to other cities and notice how restaurants are still busy at 9 p.m.?). We seem to hate hanging out where we work and prefer to hang out where we live...i.e. we are a town of neighborhoods. Go to other cities both smaller and larger than us and you do see people who like to hang out where they work, but not here. I'm not sure why StL is this way, but we are.

No. It is a midwest thing. Go to KC, Omaha, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, etc. You will find the same thing. It appears desolate due to being very car-centric.

If we had big department stores or more retail or things to do, it will pick up.

gary kreie · PostOct 19, 2017#18172017-10-19T18:19+00:00

SouthCityJR wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017
I hate to say this as a native St. Louisan who loves this town, but is there any chance Downtown's lack of vibrancy despite all of the developments mentioned is due to the nature of St. Louisans themselves? Yes, I agree that Downtown is dead and lacking energy most of the time, but I've worked in downtown Clayton for years and can assure you Clayton is every bit as dead as Downtown when it comes to measuring vibrancy. Exact same issues...you only see people out very briefly during lunch time. After dark, Pastaria is busy and so are some of the other restaurants but there isn't much activity on the streets. Overall similar problems to Downtown, despite Clayton having huge investments and massive growth in the number of office workers over the years. My point is that maybe more workers Downtown would help (surely can't hurt), but don't expect them to produce any miracles based on what I see in Clayton.

Is there a chance the real issue boils down to the culture of St. Louis? People here seem to want to drive to work, park in a garage, go to their office, then go home at 5:00 pm sharp. No hanging around a coffee shop outside the office at 10 a.m. or getting drinks after work. No going home then back to the area where you work for a late dinner (no late dinners at all actually...ever been to other cities and notice how restaurants are still busy at 9 p.m.?). We seem to hate hanging out where we work and prefer to hang out where we live...i.e. we are a town of neighborhoods. Go to other cities both smaller and larger than us and you do see people who like to hang out where they work, but not here. I'm not sure why StL is this way, but we are.

I don't think so. Our DNA does not just have a baseball gene either, despite Kroenke's beliefs. We're no different than other people. I look at Boston and OKC where my relatives live. I think the difference is largely geography. In Boston and OKC, you have to go through downtown to get across the metro area. It is the central transit point. St. Louis was built more on a peninsula sticking into Illinois with a big river barrier. The center of transit is closer to Clayton for the metro area. Downtown St. Louis is on the outer point of the city limit elbow, vs the elbow inner point for places like Boston, Chicago, etc.

Detroit has the same problem, only worse. They have a river and Canada across the barrier. At least downtown St. Louis could someday return to the center if folks would move to Illinois. Right now it is all going the other way. Too bad we didn't build the new airport in Illinois as originally planned back in the 1970s, before it was scuttled by Congressman John Young and President Carter.

moorlander · PostOct 19, 2017#18182017-10-19T18:19+00:00

SouthCityJR wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017
I hate to say this as a native St. Louisan who loves this town, but is there any chance Downtown's lack of vibrancy despite all of the developments mentioned is due to the nature of St. Louisans themselves? Yes, I agree that Downtown is dead and lacking energy most of the time, but I've worked in downtown Clayton for years and can assure you Clayton is every bit as dead as Downtown when it comes to measuring vibrancy. Exact same issues...you only see people out very briefly during lunch time. After dark, Pastaria is busy and so are some of the other restaurants but there isn't much activity on the streets. Overall similar problems to Downtown, despite Clayton having huge investments and massive growth in the number of office workers over the years. My point is that maybe more workers Downtown would help (surely can't hurt), but don't expect them to produce any miracles based on what I see in Clayton.

Is there a chance the real issue boils down to the culture of St. Louis? People here seem to want to drive to work, park in a garage, go to their office, then go home at 5:00 pm sharp. No hanging around a coffee shop outside the office at 10 a.m. or getting drinks after work. No going home then back to the area where you work for a late dinner (no late dinners at all actually...ever been to other cities and notice how restaurants are still busy at 9 p.m.?). We seem to hate hanging out where we work and prefer to hang out where we live...i.e. we are a town of neighborhoods. Go to other cities both smaller and larger than us and you do see people who like to hang out where they work, but not here. I'm not sure why StL is this way, but we are.

That's a very interesting observation.

robertn42 · PostOct 19, 2017#18192017-10-19T18:37+00:00

STLrainbow wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017

olvidarte wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017
I agree, with such an impressive list of completed projects, you'd think downtown would feel more alive, but it doesn't. I've been down here for over 10 years and over the past few years downtown has started to feel...well, dead.
Right what bothers me is not so much all the subsidies given to those projects but the fact that there has been no cohesive plan that ties everything together and creates a pleasant environment where more companies and residents want to be by choice. I'm not sure if any major downtown is as lackluster as ours right now.

There are some positive things going on to build upon but I'm not sure what's underway will move the needle much on actual day-to-day vitality on the streets when completed. Until the jobs return at a faster pace and we get some better vision with streetscaping, etc. it'll be a slow go.

That is grossly far from the truth. My job takes me to nearly every major US metropolitan area over the course of a year, at worst our downtown is middle of the pack.

I'd argue that this attitude that is problem. If those with your mindset spent more time downtown and took advantage of its amenities the picture drastically improves immediately.

I just spent the day with my daughters 3-5 wandering around downtown: Breakfast at Rooster, City Garden, Kiener Plaza, the Old Post Office Plaza and Park, lunch at Sauce on the Side. it was beautiful, people were everywhere, and they made some great memories. It's easy to be critical from afar...

dbInSouthCity · PostOct 19, 2017#18202017-10-19T18:44+00:00

well next week downtown inc is launching some sort of effort about downtown, we'll see where that one goes.

goat314 · PostOct 19, 2017#18212017-10-19T18:56+00:00

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017
well next week downtown inc is launching some sort of effort about downtown, we'll see where that one goes.

I don't know what is wrong with downtown leadership. It is really mind boggling that they have not been able to push through a form based code and actionable redevelopment plan for the greater downtown area. This should be something that the whole region should get behind. It is the face of our region and frankly many people get a negative perception of St. Louis passing through Downtown on our major interstates and Metrolink. They see the abandoned buildings, graffiti, dated skyline, and the perception is that of a dying region. Whether we like it or not, most people will not see Clayton or the Central West End when passing through St. Louis. I-70 is probably the most heavily traveled highway in the St. Louis region and it looks horrible! Abandoned industrial buildings, empty houses, graffiti etc. Compare that to a major city like Denver, Seattle, Dallas, Atlanta, Minneapolis, etc. and it's clear why people think St. Louis should be passed on. Even the landscaping coming into downtown is a total embarrassment, weeds and rocks are not appealing, where is the Great Rivers Greenway/MODOT collaboration with the highway beautification? That's not even to speak on the basic street infrastructure in downtown St. Louis. I've been to many towns, large and small, and St. Louis has BY FAR the worst downtown streetscapes of any I've seen. If we can raise money for Archgrounds and Forest Park, where is the budget for basic sidewalks, streetlights, streets trees etc.?

debaliviere · PostOct 19, 2017#18222017-10-19T19:02+00:00

robertn42 wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017

STLrainbow wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017

olvidarte wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017
I agree, with such an impressive list of completed projects, you'd think downtown would feel more alive, but it doesn't. I've been down here for over 10 years and over the past few years downtown has started to feel...well, dead.
Right what bothers me is not so much all the subsidies given to those projects but the fact that there has been no cohesive plan that ties everything together and creates a pleasant environment where more companies and residents want to be by choice. I'm not sure if any major downtown is as lackluster as ours right now.

There are some positive things going on to build upon but I'm not sure what's underway will move the needle much on actual day-to-day vitality on the streets when completed. Until the jobs return at a faster pace and we get some better vision with streetscaping, etc. it'll be a slow go.
That is grossly far from the truth. My job takes me to nearly every major US metropolitan area over the course of a year, at worst our downtown is middle of the pack.

I'd argue that this attitude that is problem. If those with your mindset spent more time downtown and took advantage of its amenities the picture drastically improves immediately.

I just spent the day with my daughters 3-5 wandering around downtown: Breakfast at Rooster, City Garden, Kiener Plaza, the Old Post Office Plaza and Park, lunch at Sauce on the Side. it was beautiful, people were everywhere, and they made some great memories. It's easy to be critical from afar...

It's interesting - I switched my commute up and now take 40 downtown instead of 44. I get off at 11th and turn onto Market. It's amazing how beautiful and impressive Market Street is in the morning. I never really realized it because I never had a reason to be there. Give me a couple new towers (in place of the Mike Shannon's building and on the vacant lot next to BofA Plaza) and it would be stunning.

dbInSouthCity · PostOct 19, 2017#18232017-10-19T19:02+00:00

Form Based code is being actively pushed by downtown neighborhood association, they have a committee set up to get the process moving.

STLrainbow · PostOct 19, 2017#18242017-10-19T19:05+00:00

robertn42 wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017

STLrainbow wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017

olvidarte wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017
I agree, with such an impressive list of completed projects, you'd think downtown would feel more alive, but it doesn't. I've been down here for over 10 years and over the past few years downtown has started to feel...well, dead.
Right what bothers me is not so much all the subsidies given to those projects but the fact that there has been no cohesive plan that ties everything together and creates a pleasant environment where more companies and residents want to be by choice. I'm not sure if any major downtown is as lackluster as ours right now.

There are some positive things going on to build upon but I'm not sure what's underway will move the needle much on actual day-to-day vitality on the streets when completed. Until the jobs return at a faster pace and we get some better vision with streetscaping, etc. it'll be a slow go.
That is grossly far from the truth. My job takes me to nearly every major US metropolitan area over the course of a year, at worst our downtown is middle of the pack.

Curious what major downtowns you think are below ours. From downtown residents to employers, we lag almost all our peers And to me, a simple vibrancy check is the degree of non food/beverage retail; we have hardly any. And I don't think people here are saying there is nothing to do or enjoy downtown -- I certainly don't think that -- but rather that the day-to-day vibrancy is lacking.

debaliviere · PostOct 19, 2017#18252017-10-19T19:16+00:00

STLrainbow wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2017
Curious what major downtowns you think are below ours.

Buffalo. Actually, Buffalo is pretty similar, IIRC. We're about even.

That's the entire list for me.

The State of Downtown

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