urbanSTL

Does anyone know if Southwest picked up direct flights to Cincinnati from St Louis?Thank you in advance.

kbshapiro wrote: ↑

May 23, 2017

Does anyone know if Southwest picked up direct flights to Cincinnati from St Louis?Thank you in advance.

Not through at least the end of the year. Still just Baltimore and Chicago to Cincinnati. I would think we would be on the short list for connection reasons. I kind of wonder if once they start if Delta will quit flying it.

A while back I'd enquired if anyone knew anything about the original East Terminal, a structure of which I had vague recollections. The consensus was that there'd really been no building before the present terminal. I finally found a picture that perhaps clarifies some thirty to . . . oh . . . never mind . . . some youthful recollections.

Here's a photograph of terminal map from 1985:

https://flic.kr/p/pA9wuS

So that pretty well settles it, I think. The original "East Terminal" was just a reference to the customs end of the D concourse. So there wasn't an earlier building that the current "Terminal Two" replaced, but the name does predate that building by a good dozen years or more.

My recollections of the original East Terminal were from the 90's and it was a low slung, white metal building that almost looked like a warehouse with gates. It was very small and certainly didn't have the footprint size of the current terminal, maybe 1/4 the size.

I have some footage from a distance on one of my travel tapes from back then, I will try and post up over the next several days.

April numbers are up. Up 6.8% on the month 6.9% on the year. Nice.

http://www.flystl.com/uploads/documents ... 7_ATAS.pdf

jshank83 wrote: ↑

May 25, 2017

April numbers are up. Up 6.8% on the month 6.9% on the year. Nice.

http://www.flystl.com/uploads/documents ... 7_ATAS.pdf

Yes, very nice to see a continued uptick in volume. Hopefully it can be sustained for a while.

For comparison:

Pittsburgh's numbers are up 6% to 720,778, compared to 1,216,423 at STL (and they attribute that growth in part to Southwest's new STL-PIT flight)

Traffic Cincinnati's CVG was up 10% over last year, to 611,018.

Nashvillle is up 9.2% from last April to 1,155,256 passengers.

Dallas Love field (which if I recall was the airport just ahead of us on the busiest airports for 2016 based on passenger volume) hasn't released its April numbers yet.

-RBB

The growth has been about a year and a half consistent and often strong growth. Wonder if some of the growth was lessened last month with the terrible weather at the end, since it would be interesting to know if some months were a bit off one way or the other due to difference in number of cancellations because of weather.

Also the growth has been nearly split between local demand and connecting traffic. Makes me wonder where the local demand is going to or coming from? Could be with the noticeable growth last 18 months is there some destinations that could be plausible now or soon due to increased demand that wasn't before.

imperialmog wrote: ↑

May 26, 2017

The growth has been about a year and a half consistent and often strong growth. Wonder if some of the growth was lessened last month with the terrible weather at the end, since it would be interesting to know if some months were a bit off one way or the other due to difference in number of cancellations because of weather.

Also the growth has been nearly split between local demand and connecting traffic. Makes me wonder where the local demand is going to or coming from? Could be with the noticeable growth last 18 months is there some destinations that could be plausible now or soon due to increased demand that wasn't before.

I'm not sure if I'll have time to dig up the numbers, but I'd be curious to to see how the current origination numbers compare to Lambert at its peak (or at least pre-9/11 and/or pre- de-hubbing). It could be that SWA (in particular, but not solely) is proving there's pent-up demand here. Or that Lambert officials are finally able to moderate landing costs enough to make it worth an airline's while to reconsider STL as a revenue driver.

-RBB

Late 90s to 2000 comparison would be interesting. One thing is 9/11 and later dehubbing sapped short haul local demand because you are better off driving due to time difference plus less frequency to any place with execption of Chicago (and even then there's likely a lot less local demand than in the past due to that and eventually competition with train) Another factor to consider is lower speed limits on interstates during most of that time (and a good chuck when it was only 55mph) which would tilt the time difference between fly/drive towards fly.

Could be that local demand overall didn't change much in timeframe, but it was due to a any gains in demand in places was offset by drop in demand from close in places. and recent local demand growth is in part a result of short distance demand stopped shrinking. Other factors could be the startup community is driving demand and that younger generations locally are more apt to travel by air. Since local air demand seems to be now noticeably faster than what you'd expect from local economy.

So I've been wondering about where the magic money comes from in the privatization schemes. Would this still apply?

jshank83 wrote: ↑

May 23, 2017

kbshapiro wrote: ↑

May 23, 2017

Does anyone know if Southwest picked up direct flights to Cincinnati from St Louis?Thank you in advance.

Not through at least the end of the year. Still just Baltimore and Chicago to Cincinnati. I would think we would be on the short list for connection reasons. I kind of wonder if once they start if Delta will quit flying it.

I wouldn't hold your breath on DL cutting CVG-STL. As it is, they've right sized capacity and have the markets important to the CVG business community well served and they still get some incremental flow traffic. By most indications the RASMs they get out of CVG are among the highest in their domestic system, but I will qualify is by saying allocation of revenue and tracing of costs is a highly subjective (and at times arbitrary) process for a carrier DL's size and each airline does so differently when evaluating the merits of network changes. Anything that has lasted this long serves a clear network need and holds its own.

With respect to WN, I suspect in time STL-CVG will get served. What is notable is they opened the CVG point with bonafide TWU-represented below the wing WN employees. So it's clear they have the intention to grow beyond the average number of departures the CBA will allow them (average of 10 over a twelve month look back) before triggering in-house below the wing staffing. Other newer markets like MEM or ICT have third party handlers below the wing, and haven't grown given the costs incremental flying will bring. But then again, this is the TWU and even with different representatives enforcing the agreement than are in place at AA, the company probably knows what they need to do to get the union leadership approve a side letter agreement waiving certain contractual provisions (which the AA agreement and system is rife with)

Just took a WN STL-TPA trip, down on Fri eve and back tonight. Both flights were 100% full and the terminal was very crowded each night. On the way out the parking lot van driver asked me who I was flying and after my answer he said 'yeah like everyone else'.

rbb wrote: ↑

May 26, 2017

I'd be curious to to see how the current origination numbers compare to Lambert at its peak (or at least pre-9/11 and/or pre- de-hubbing).

During the Carl Icahn era (1986-1993), Lambert remained steady at 19-20 million passengers / year.

Once Icahn left, TWA ramped up STL and Lambert passenger traffic surged:

1994 - 23.3 million
1995 - 25.7 million
1996 - 27.2 million
1997 - 27.6 million
1998 - 28.7 million
1999 - 30.1 million
2000 - 30.6 million

As expected, traffic dropped post 9/11 to 26.7 million in 2001 and 25.6 million in 2002.

American's first downsizing at Lambert happened in 2003, with traffic dropping to 20.4 million in 2003 and 13.4 million in 2004.

Over the next few years, traffic rebounded slightly in the 14.5-15.5 million range through 2008.

American dehubbed STL in 2009 and Lambert hit a passenger low of 12.3 million in 2010.

Greg

I think the thing to note is comparing those 90s numbers and today, is what is the traffic in each case once you strip out connecting traffic. Mainly is the local origin and destination traffic higher now than then? If I had to guess its overall not much different, mainly since a lot of people were going to nearby places in the 90s that are now driving to which is offsetting gains elsewhere.

Interesting update on the airports debt.

Agencies Boost STL’s Outlook Ahead of Bond Refunding

http://www.flystl.com/newsroom/stl-news ... -refunding

Actually I will be flying out next Monday to Charleston. (got a great intro fare deal on nonstop flights). I'll grab some pictures since i'm curious what it looks like there as well. Leaving work at lunch to catch a 4pm flight. Also will be doing my little hobby in helping fill out the map for openstreetmap. Since if you look on the map Terminal 2 is empty so i'll fill that in as well listing amenities and details since i've seen other airports are very detailed in this. (O'Hare is good example)

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/3 ... /-90.35517

Here is what it looks like now. So hopefully i'll have the time (and phone battery power) to add the stores, restaurants, and amenities there along with marking the gates out.

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑

May 25, 2017

A while back I'd enquired if anyone knew anything about the original East Terminal, a structure of which I had vague recollections. The consensus was that there'd really been no building before the present terminal. I finally found a picture that perhaps clarifies some thirty to . . . oh . . . never mind . . . some youthful recollections.

Here's a photograph of terminal map from 1985:

https://flic.kr/p/pA9wuS

So that pretty well settles it, I think. The original "East Terminal" was just a reference to the customs end of the D concourse. So there wasn't an earlier building that the current "Terminal Two" replaced, but the name does predate that building by a good dozen years or more.

Here is the video, not a clear shot but you can see how the gates were clustered together and connected to a white box that sat a bit further out than the customs area. The area was an absolute zoo the few times I flew out of it:

pdm_ad wrote: ↑

May 31, 2017

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑

May 25, 2017

A while back I'd enquired if anyone knew anything about the original East Terminal, a structure of which I had vague recollections. The consensus was that there'd really been no building before the present terminal. I finally found a picture that perhaps clarifies some thirty to . . . oh . . . never mind . . . some youthful recollections.

Here's a photograph of terminal map from 1985:

https://flic.kr/p/pA9wuS

So that pretty well settles it, I think. The original "East Terminal" was just a reference to the customs end of the D concourse. So there wasn't an earlier building that the current "Terminal Two" replaced, but the name does predate that building by a good dozen years or more.

Here is the video, not a clear shot but you can see how the gates were clustered together and connected to a white box that sat a bit further out than the customs area. The area was an absolute zoo the few times I flew out of it:

Cool video!

I think people mentioned it before but here, oddly enough, is a google earth image from the same month as the video. I think some people wondered if there was something there before this where the main part of T2 is located.

pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Here is the video, not a clear shot but you can see how the gates were clustered together and connected to a white box that sat a bit further out than the customs area. The area was an absolute zoo the few times I flew out of it:

Sweet! That's a nice video. I really wish I'd had the foresight to take more pictures then. But I was young and film was expensive on my budget, so I was probably too conservative. Love that you got a 747, a 767, and an L-1011 all right in a row at the end of C. And 727s, MD-80s, and even a glimpse of 15s down at the guard ramp. And even the new tower under construction. I dislike the way the new tower interferes with the lines of (and views from) the terminal, but it doubtless gives better sight lines of aircraft at the C, D, and E concourses. Very nice video indeed.

jshank83 wrote: ↑
Cool video!

I think people mentioned it before but here, oddly enough, is a google earth image from the same month as the video. I think some people wondered if there was something there before this where the main part of T2 is located.

I think that was me, actually. And whatever was there before the new terminal building, it doesn't appear to have been a terminal. The original East Terminal was apparently just the end of the D concourse and that white shack pdm_ad mentioned. I'm still kind of curious if there had ever been a public entrance about where that round business is at the extreme southeast corner sits, but I'm guessing probably not. I suppose I might ask my grandmother, as she flew out internationally often enough. I just can't quite remember.

Anyway, thank you both.

imperialmog wrote: ↑

May 30, 2017

I think the thing to note is comparing those 90s numbers and today, is what is the traffic in each case once you strip out connecting traffic. Mainly is the local origin and destination traffic higher now than then? If I had to guess its overall not much different, mainly since a lot of people were going to nearby places in the 90s that are now driving to which is offsetting gains elsewhere.

Yep, that's exactly what I was curious to see.

-RBB

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑

May 31, 2017

pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Here is the video, not a clear shot but you can see how the gates were clustered together and connected to a white box that sat a bit further out than the customs area. The area was an absolute zoo the few times I flew out of it:

Sweet! That's a nice video. I really wish I'd had the foresight to take more pictures then. But I was young and film was expensive on my budget, so I was probably too conservative. Love that you got a 747, a 767, and an L-1011 all right in a row at the end of C. And 727s, MD-80s, and even a glimpse of 15s down at the guard ramp. And even the new tower under construction. I dislike the way the new tower interferes with the lines of (and views from) the terminal, but it doubtless gives better sight lines of aircraft at the C, D, and E concourses. Very nice video indeed.

jshank83 wrote: ↑
Cool video!

I think people mentioned it before but here, oddly enough, is a google earth image from the same month as the video. I think some people wondered if there was something there before this where the main part of T2 is located.

I think that was me, actually. And whatever was there before the new terminal building, it doesn't appear to have been a terminal. The original East Terminal was apparently just the end of the D concourse and that white shack pdm_ad mentioned. I'm still kind of curious if there had ever been a public entrance about where that round business is at the extreme southeast corner sits, but I'm guessing probably not. I suppose I might ask my grandmother, as she flew out internationally often enough. I just can't quite remember.

Anyway, thank you both.

I am too young to remember that area myself (born in 1983). I do somewhat remember walking through D and seeing Paris on the board at the end of C. I also can remember waiting for people in B. My most vivid memory is probably the food court and getting cinnabon just past the security going into C/D, so as a kid you see where my priorities were, haha.

rbb wrote: ↑

May 31, 2017

imperialmog wrote: ↑

May 30, 2017

I think the thing to note is comparing those 90s numbers and today, is what is the traffic in each case once you strip out connecting traffic. Mainly is the local origin and destination traffic higher now than then? If I had to guess its overall not much different, mainly since a lot of people were going to nearby places in the 90s that are now driving to which is offsetting gains elsewhere.

Yep, that's exactly what I was curious to see.

-RBB

That's a great question. I was digging around after somebody posted the bid documents and maybe another report a while back. If that was you, my apologies for telling you a story you told me, as it were. That said, there's quite a treasure trove of old reports in a public notice folder on the airport's website if you haven't already seen them:

http://www.flystl.com/uploads/documents ... d-reports/

Some of them have some pretty good information on gate utilization, and there's quite a lot of passenger numbers, but I'm not quite seeing what you're looking for. Might not be looking quite right. Fascinating stuff either way.

^ Nice, hadn't seen those documents before. Thanks for the link.