urbanSTL

Directly no. Indirectly yes. This would help MoDOT match its allocated fed funds which in turn MoDOT gives $80m to EWG a year for the stp and cmaq programs. Metro cleans up on bus replacements in cmaq competition. So they can pretty much pencil in $5-7m a year for new buses from this and not their own funds. Metro can apply for other stp and cmaq jobs. GrR, trailnet and cmt can too but need MoDOT to sponsor and MoDOT has always said yes. Cmt got $500k in cmaq in the last round with MoDOTs support

St. Louis County launching study of MetroLink expansion

St. Louis County is about to devote approximately $1 million from a dedicated transit tax fund to study the expansion of MetroLink lines to sections of the county lacking access to public rail transportation.


http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/ ... e7372.html

roger wyoming II wrote:^ I don't think the timing of this is coincidence either.... i.e. the announcement yesterday of the plant sciences, mixed-use master plan for area around the Danforth Plant Science Center.

That would imply they are looking at the line to Westport again. But if I recall the idea was to go along railroad ROW which is about a mile north of that. Is it possible they are looking if an alignment that goes past Olive and Lindbergh could work better if the development does occur there?

Of the lines they mention? would they also look at connecting the two existing lines using the old railroad ROW along 170? Since the north or south ideas could make it more feasible, easy ROW issues, and would create at least the first mile of a Westport line.

I remember telling people that St. Louis Co. was going to bond out the "Green Line/Daniel Boone" line to Westport once the Cross County bonds were paid off. People thought I was nuts, this proves my sources were correct. I knew we would get at least one more Metrolink extension this generation and it looks like the power brokers have chosen Westport over N/S line. While I think the line has merits, it is obviously not what the region needs at this points. One look at the Cross County line tells me that most of these suburban municipalities will not do what is need to spur transit oriented development. This will simply be Cross County pt. II. Metrolink has and will continue to be envisioned as commuter/grade separated suburban rail, with mediocre urban utility. I predict Metro will replace the N-S line with a watered down BRT line. Maybe one day we will get a St. Louis Streetcar that overlays the BRT within the city limits, but I think the city has to go rogue if it wants urban transit.

Imperial, I don't think the county has ever stopped looking at Westport line and has never looked at N-S. To me, the shrewsbury to Butler hill extension should have stayed on the radar as a phased expansion from the get go. However, that would require the county, city and region to act like most metro regions by building and expanding upon the foundation once a decision is made. Instead, the county will most likely get two truncated metrolink lines as goat noted.

At the same an argument could be made to go to Westport based on poorly south county muni's have embraced metrolink in that it would be better to at least build to a location in Westport Plaza that probably as close as your going to get for county TOD development outside of Clayton downtown business district. Also, I wonder if county would push Shrewsbury extension route along BNSF over the Des Peres River greenway for Shrewsbury extension, which would hurt the possibility of seeing some more mixed use, dense development IMO. At least with Westport line you also got the Dansforth/possibly the redevelopment of Monsanto campus on the radar

The article that I think Roger is referring to in regards to a federal grant to expand Danforth into an innovative center with mixed use, residential and density.

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/morn ... r-add.html

I got a chuckle out of Roger's comments. County version of CORTEX but they have to play catch up and build themselves a metrolink station. You also have to imagine that WWT choosing Westport Plaza/LHM as its HQ is also a driver in the business community as far as picking Westport over extending cross county.

^ Correct, I remember a couple years ago Dooley viciously defended Westport at a E-W Gateway meeting, saying it was the county's #1 transit priority and would connect/spur "jobs" in the area. The tone changed a bit post-Ferguson, but now that its obvious the county will do nothing to help people with serious transit needs, its back to business as usual.

With that said, I do like the fact that Metrolink is grade separated and I would like to keep it that way if possible. I'm actually one of those crazy people that would like to see the I-70 express lanes resemble the Dan Ryan in Chicago. I also was more in favor of using the rail ROW in South City over Jefferson.

I don't think this bodes well for the City. It looks like the county wants to take the approach that I believe the City should be taking. If the county is successful and moves forward to this, forget about the millennial growth we've been having. This is what the City should be doing. Bonding out its own transit and not worrying about the County.

^ whats sad Pat is that we were basically just lied to and told that Metro is broke and we cant do nothing, now all of sudden there are funds for studies and "regional" leaders are looking at multiple expansions throughout the county. This just shows how inept our govt. structure is in St. Louis. If the city was part of the county, N-S would be the obvious first choice, but since its not we get the short end of the stick.

^^ I was figuring the County has always preferred the Westport line. And that areal plus the Danforth center area has more opportunity for the TOD. The idea I have is maybe looking at a modified Westport line as a possibility where it goes to the Danforth Center area since the proposals I have seen didn't go there.

I agree with the grade separated, since it allows for more options and the express lanes idea is intriguing. Using the rail ROW would be a cost efficient way of expansion, and even more so if you could work out TOD along those corridors. It would be interesting if there is a map showing rail corridors in use and not in use that could be used in expansion.

Talked to my metro source about this, I'm hearing county is looking at two possible lines (one to Westport and one up I-170 to Boeing) that would branch off from each other around Olive, the county would like to have both because it supposed to stabilize "mid county", centralize Clayton, and connect to major job hubs. This could get interesting. Also hearing that N-S line will likely become North Co. BRT/ W. Florissant Great Streets. Sources says leaders don't think there are enough jobs in that part of North County to justify that kind of rail investment. Metro is also not nearly as broke as it is claiming, they are currently paying off Cross County bonds to free up money to do the bond thing again. Would get major support from unions, construction companies, and huge employers. Yeah, the city is not seen as a priority.

Yeah fragmentation!

Steve Stenger @StengerSTLCo

The first step in my strategy is to get input from people & professionals about which route to study: Daniel Boone, MetroNorth or MetroSouth

Not in total agreement with you Goat. I do agree that Dooley and county leadership flat out pulled the wool over our sheep eyes for those who voted in favor of Prop A. Dooley is the one who signed off on using Prop A funds to pay off the Cross County bonds by the nifty county loan to Metro. Then the county turned around and have been using Prop A funds to themselves back with interest.

However, At least the county leadership is finely looking at where they should go with metrolink and transit, Yes, county focused but what do anyone really expect at this point. In addition, I think that many voters who voted yes on Prop A got the impression and assumed from the get go that those funds where most likely going to fund a county expansion.

At the same token, I do think a County N-S BR overlayed with a city N-S streetcar sharing the same ROW, infrastructure is a decent idea. I think it expands city transit to get people to core/jobs downtown while trying not to have light rail be everything to the regions transit. Maybe a deal can be had with city funds that were also made available with Prop A to kick start STL streetcar. Which by itself shows a fair amount of dysfunction within the city leadership & how they take positions.

The City needs to wake up. This "regionalism" thing is not going to work in the City's favor. The County sees the City as a leach, a money pit. They will continue to use the city as a place to stash the poor and visit on the weekends. Maybe I'm just being a prisoner of the moment.

pat wrote:The City needs to wake up. This "regionalism" thing is not going to work in the City's favor. The County sees the City as a leach, a money pit. They will continue to use the city as a place to stash the poor and visit on the weekends. Maybe I'm just being a prisoner of the moment.

A moment that has lasted something like forty years.

Isn't the concern with the streetcar is that depending on how grade separated it is, there isn't any real gains over buses which might be what the issue is. And if the metrolink was set up as not grade separated it could have the same issues. Using the existing ROWs would allow for a more robust system and could in some cases be better from a TOD perspective.

In terms of county development, if there really is a plan for developing a corridor from the Danforth Center towards Westport, it does make that line more feasible, the alignment becomes key and also there is some areas where you can get existing ROW easy.

Great news. I can't wait to hear what they come up with. It sounds like Danforth/Westport might be the early frontrunner.

goat314 wrote:Talked to my metro source about this, I'm hearing county is looking at two possible lines (one to Westport and one up I-170 to Boeing) that would branch off from each other around Olive, the county would like to have both because it supposed to stabilize "mid county", centralize Clayton, and connect to major job hubs. This could get interesting. Also hearing that N-S line will likely become North Co. BRT/ W. Florissant Great Streets. Sources says leaders don't think there are enough jobs in that part of North County to justify that kind of rail investment. Metro is also not nearly as broke as it is claiming, they are currently paying off Cross County bonds to free up money to do the bond thing again. Would get major support from unions, construction companies, and huge employers. Yeah, the city is not seen as a priority.

Good info, but the part bolded to me doesn't make sense. It there are no jobs in that area would it not make more sense that ridership would be higher because people in North County would have to go across area for jobs.

Seriously, this cities urban planning is backward. Gearing every project toward a certain area or group that real does not want to be apart of anything urban or publicly funded is ludicrous.

Just a guess. But I'd think a "Plant Science" station would actually be at Ashby/N Warson & Baur (3/4 - 1 mile north of the Danforth Center) than it actually veering out of the existing rail ROW (which heads on to Westport) and serving the Center more directly.

^^ When I heard about this about a year ago, the rumor is that it would be called the "Green Line", get it? The station would be at warson/ashby road with a shuttle to the core of the district, but the long term plan is Cortex part two (with a strong focus on plant science), just like the article says. Many of the smallish warehouses would eventually go the way as the smallish warehouses in Cortex, meaning torn down for more substantial businesses, residents, etc. This is essentially the county's answer to Cortex and an attempt to steal some of the gusto from Cortex and the CWE. Like most things in the region, we cant just put all of our resources into one district ala Cortex. We have to have competing factions.

Other things to consider. Olive and I-170, University City has long term plans for this part of Olive and is proactively planning for TOD, the day metrolink comes. Obviously, Westport wants to secure its future as a corporate hub and eventually veer off into mixed use development. Dorsett Road is also planning for a new future as a great street, and who knows? the Westport line could simply graze the district and terminate and Dorsett Road instead of the heart of Westport.

wabash wrote:Just a guess. But I'd think a "Plant Science" station would actually be at Ashby/N Warson & Baur (3/4 - 1 mile north of the Danforth Center) than it actually veering out of the existing rail ROW (which heads on to Westport) and serving the Center more directly.

That was what I was thinking, it would make it not too expensive to establish a line since you would have ROW all the way to Clayton. Then work on development spreading from that station to the south. The shuttle that was mentioned, maybe it could work by going south towards the Plant Science place, then go west on Olive towards City Place and then South down Ballas towards the hospitals ending at the bus hub at Ballas and 64. If they did end up ending the line around Dorsett, it also wouldn't be depending on if they stay on the rail ROW in the Westport/Dorsett area, to continue towards Earth City in the future if there is a need there, if something really changed and St. Charles changed its views, or to loop back towards the airport (which might not be too hard since a lot of the route could use airport ROW almost all the way to Earth City)